Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software

#101: Fostering Sustainable Change with Leor Herzfeld

Join Brian as he discusses the crucial elements of sustainable agility with Leor Herzfeld, Agile Coach and CEO of Integral Agile. Dive into the human side of sustainability and discover the 14 dimensions essential for creating a culture that truly engages.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with Leor Herzfeld to unpack the concept of sustainable agility from a deeply human perspective.
They explore why external changes often fail and how a focus on individual health—encompassing safety, autonomy, mastery, purpose, and accountability—can lead to genuine, lasting transformation within organizations.
Leor shares practical tools for leaders looking to foster an environment that supports continuous agile practices and nurtures employee engagement. Listen in as they discuss how to achieve a resilient and thriving workplace.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:01] - Join Brian as he explores the vital role of sustainability in Agile methodologies with expert guest, CEO of Integral Agile and author of the upcoming book Reimagine Transformation, Leor Herzfeld.
[2:09] - Leor delves into the meaning of human sustainability, explaining its significance and impact.
[4:33] - Brian discusses the inherent resistance to change, noting that even positive transformations require adjustments.
[5:22] - Leor poses the shift from thinking about only the holistic, healthy Agile culture and team to focusing on a healthy individual.
[7:14] - Brian and Leor explore what sustainability and sustainable pace practices entail in real-world scenarios.
[10:03] - Leor examines the reasons behind employees' lack of engagement in their organizations and work environments.
[11:49] - Leor discusses 14 key aspects of individual health that are essential for creating a sustainable and healthy environment at both individual and organizational levels.
[14:03] - Leor shares a tool to assess the Agile health of your team or organization.
[14:53] - Enhance your team's performance with Mountain Goat Software’s specialized private training, including exclusive classes for leaders that accommodate their busy schedules. Dive into training that promises to elevate your team and organizational health, ensuring success across the board. You can email the Mountain Goat Software team for detailed information.
[16:43] - Leor shares how he measures the sustainability and health of the teams and organizations he works with.
[18:46] - Brian highlights a frequent issue encountered in classes: Agile teams feeling unsupported by their organization's culture.
[22:27] - Leor delves into the evolving landscape of the Agile world, exploring how shifts can foster greater organizational support and, thereby, sustainable environments.
[28:58] - Brian shares a big thank you to Leor for joining him on the show.
[29:52] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here.
[30:17] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. If you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show, send us an email. We can’t wait to hear!
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Leor Herzfeld
Integral Agile
Integral Agile Health and Happiness Assessment
Reimagine Transformation by Leor Herzfeld, David Hersey, Ben Williams, and Julio Pizarro
Organizational Transformation: A Case Study For Creating A Cross-Functional Team Of Teams (Art) Aligned To A Value Stream
Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Daniel Pink
Agile For Leaders
Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
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This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Leor Herzfeld is an Agile Coach and creator of the Integral Agile Approach, combines his artistic and scientific expertise to drive transformative changes in the financial and educational sectors. He is dedicated to developing advanced collaboration tools that enhance organizational design and enable seamless workflows, drawing from his unique blend of artistic vision and scientific insight.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And with me today, I have Mr. Leor Herzfeld with us. Welcome in, Leor.
Leor Herzfeld (00:13)
Thank you, Brian. Happy to be here.
Brian (00:16)
Excited to have Leor with us. Leor is somebody who we kind of cross -passed at the Agile 2023 conference this last year. And he had a talk there that was really, really interesting. And we wanted to have him on for a while now to kind of share some of the insights from that talk with us here on the podcast. So his topic was called sustainable agility. But we were talking about this before he had. So Leor, I'll kind of turn this over to you. Help us understand, because it sounds like that's maybe, that might be a little misleading into what we're really talking about. So what are we really talking about?
Leor Herzfeld (00:56)
Well, yes, so it's misleading from the perspective of sustainability with regards to the buzzword that it is today, right? So we think about, you know, are we being ecologically responsible and so on and so forth. But in fact, this is sustainability from a more human perspective. So what happens typically when the coach or scrum master leaves the team? Oftentimes things fall apart, right? When that kind of protective presence leaves. the gains that were made tend to erode. Now, why is that the case? Often it's the case because whatever change they've put in place was external. It was a process -oriented change and it's not something that really penetrated into the hearts and minds of the people there.
Brian (01:44)
Yeah. Yeah. I make an argument there as well. Cause I know this is something that, uh, like Lisa Adkins will, will mention is that, you know, if that, if that coach that leaves and there's a vacuum and a hole, and now they're kind of lost, that coach didn't really do a great job because part of our role is to create that capability so that they don't depend on the coach. Right. Um, so yeah.
Leor Herzfeld (02:10)
Yeah, and you know, I'm going to go ahead and take the coaches side here, which is a rare point of view for me. Don't get me wrong. I love coaches and I love agile. But I often think, you know, sometimes coaches might be coming at the situation from, you know, a lack of empathy. You know, they're very process oriented and I've heard many coaches blame the client for, you know, not listening to them where.
Brian (02:16)
Hahaha.
Leor Herzfeld (02:36)
you know, as a coach myself, someone who's been a coach for 15 years, I've always felt like it's my responsibility to connect empathically with the person because what are we doing when we're coming in to bring in a massive change? And in essence, Agile is asking people to think backwards, right? It's thinking from the perspective, whether we're talking about, you know, the definition of success is no longer output, it's now outcome. or we're not going to do right to left planning, they're going to say, oh, when's something going to be done? And we're going to say, well, I don't have a baseline for how your teams are performing yet. So let me get back to you in about a month after we'll establish what the team's velocity and throughput is. And that's a terrifying thing for people to hear who are accustomed to doing things a particular way for five, 10, 15 years. So when coaches come in and they're just like, well, here's the process and it must be done this way, why aren't you listening to me? You know, that's where I sometimes take exception with how coaches approach it. I see it as a personal responsibility as a coach to understand the intrinsic motivations of every individual with whom I encounter and really help them get that I understand that you're taking a risk. I understand that you've spent, you've gotten where you are today in terms of your career. You've gotten here by doing these things. And I'm now asking you to throw that out the window and do things differently.
Brian (04:02)
Yeah, it's tough. I mean, the change in itself, anytime we go through change, it's hard and there's resistance to any kind of change that we encounter in our lives. You know, even changes that we would seek out, you know, like getting married or having a kid or anything like that, you know, like it's, we, we, we, uh, we enter into those changes very willingly, but it doesn't mean that every aspect of that change is something that we embrace wholeheartedly, you know, uh, There's adjustment periods and there's just something that you got to get used to when you go through those. And I agree with you. I think the organizations are the same way, the people in those organizations. So I love this approach. I love kind of thinking about it from the human perspective and kind of the impact it makes there. So let's go further into it. So if we're talking about kind of the human aspect of this, help us understand that a little bit more.
Leor Herzfeld (04:56)
Right. So this is something that, you know, that integral agile, this is my company, we've created the integral agile approach. It's intention. So when I say I'm having empathy for coaches here, agile talks about how important the mindset is. And they talk about how important it is to create a healthy agile culture. But if you Google how to create a healthy agile culture or how to cultivate a healthy mindset, there isn't anything that someone can have a look at. and say, oh, I'll just do that then. And the reasons for that are, of course, is it varies place by place. And it's ethereal, right? It's a very difficult thing to codify. We've tried to do that anyway. So the basis of the talk I gave at Agile 2023 was about, if we're talking about sustainable agility, the individuals. So Agile often talks about healthy teams. But I never hear it talking about healthy individuals. And is it possible to have a healthy team if the individuals who make them up are themselves not healthy?
Brian (06:05)
Yeah, that's a very, very good point. And by the way, I got to just stop down here because I got so excited with our topic that I kind of skipped over really giving Leor a proper introduction. I'd said that we cross paths from Agile 2023, but you just reminded me that I didn't really introduce you. Leor is the CEO of a company called Integral Agile. And their philosophy is trying to work to have Agile deliver the results that it promises, which is, again, we were talking a little bit before we started about how that's just not always the case. We see, in fact, it's often not the case. There's a lot of circumstances where organizations are just not getting the promise that they thought they were going to get with Agile. There is a book that is not out yet, but is coming out that Leor is going to have out in a bit called Reimagine. transformation. And so be on the lookout for that. That's going to be a really, really important book, I know. So sustainable from a human perspective, sustainable is the person healthy, is the person working in a way that they can kind of keep that up over a long period of time. There was an interesting thing I came across actually on this that I don't know if you've. encountered this or not, but I know when the whole agile concept of working at a sustainable pace, before that even came up, I think it was from the XP team, when they had originally started to deal with this whole concept of sustainability, their original kind of approach was about, when they started, they actually quoted it as something like, people shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. And they started from that perspective of we got to limit all this because we're having all these people work nights and weekends. And so let's just say people shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. But that adjusted over time and it changed it to sustainable because what they realized was, well, for some people, sustainable is less than 40 hours. For other people, it's more than 40 hours. So who are we to say, you know, Hey, this is what sustainable is for you. You've got to find your own sustainable pace.
Leor Herzfeld (08:31)
Yeah, and sustainable pace is a part of it. But you know, if we're talking about so you you, you also may have seen, you know, the Gallup State of Work poll that came out last year. And we've heard about quiet quitting. And, you know, you just have to see now, especially with with Gen Z coming into the marketplace, and, you know, they've got a completely different mindset and they have different expectations at work. They have expectations that are valid. They have expectations around psychological safety, diversity, equity, inclusion. There are things that organizations are struggling to adapt to because there's been this kind of like, you're going to come here and work and you hear people being called resources and that makes us cringe. But there's this old school mindset. And again, I really want to respond to this with empathy and not make like where we are in the world today. This is a slice of human history. And it's very easy to look at, you know, to try and make things wrong, whether it's like there's a mismatch in culture, you know, boomers versus Gen Z versus, you know, millennials, Gen X, whatever. We've got different cultures. We've got different mindsets and we need to figure out a way to come together. So something like... Let's not work 40 hours a week is important, right? But it's not sufficient to say, okay, well, we now have a healthy individual.
Brian (09:55)
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot more that goes into it, right? There's, I mean, that is part of it, obviously, because you don't want to have burnout and everything else, but I love you bringing up the point about quiet quitting and engagement. You know, there's clearly, you know, lots of organizations deal with this issue of engagement and having a disengaged workforce and trying to have engagement initiatives and raise the level of engagement of employees and all that kind of stuff. So it's clearly a recognized problem. It's clearly something that organizations struggle with and have experimented and tried to find solutions to. So from your perspective, what do you think about that? Why do you feel like organizations are having such a big issue with engagement with their employees?
Leor Herzfeld (10:44)
I think people don't feel valued. They feel like they're fungible parts in the machine. But more so than that, they lack a connection to purpose. So most folks operating in an organization don't know what the organizational purpose is. And if they haven't done their own personal development work, they probably don't know what their own personal purpose is. So they're in there to get a paycheck. And there's this kind of adversarial relationship. I would think most people kind of hate work, right? And again, maybe this is me just being utopic, but I really feel like it doesn't have to be that way, right? And there's this idea of, you know, even in any, something like a retrospective, we don't have time to do the retrospective. So like, you know, oh my God, if we're gonna try to really get down to a human level and try to connect with our people and see what motivates them intrinsically, Like who has time to spend on that? But wow, if you spend the time on that, what do you get? What's your return on investment there? If you can actually help a person connect to what they're passionate about and then how what they're passionate about can contribute to the organizational purpose, which might mean changing their role, right? It's like sticky icky and people don't want to touch it.
Brian (12:08)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, uh, you know, if you were in a professional athlete of some kind and you played whatever game your sport, you know, has, and you just went from game to game to game and never stopped in between to watch the game film or analyze your, your, you know, uh, swing or, you know, right. You got to have that, those moments to stop and be critical, uh, so that you can then say, all right, well, this didn't work as well as we should have, but. Let's try something new. Let's try a different way of approaching.
Leor Herzfeld (12:41)
Right. So this is what we came up with. I've got, you know, I'm curious to hear if anyone has any feedback, but so far these have felt, they've gotten pretty good feedback. So we came up with 14 dimensions of individual health that we feel need to be addressed in one way or another. So I've got safety. I love Daniel Pink. So we've got autonomy, mastery and purpose. Personal growth, right?
Brian (13:08)
Yep, I'm with you.
Leor Herzfeld (13:11)
Person needs to feel like they're learning something or they're gonna get bored. Career growth, if there's no path for them to grow in their career, then they're gonna look for work elsewhere. Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, right, very important. Play. Things don't have to be so damn serious all the time. We can have a little bit of fun at work, people. It's not dangerous. You need healthy relationships with your coworkers. Accountability.
Brian (13:31)
Ha ha ha.
Leor Herzfeld (13:41)
Um, and accountability is something that, that is not intrinsic to a lot of people. It's something that often needs to be taught and it's about showing up with integrity. Um, doing what you say you're going to do by when you're saying, by when you say you're going to do it, you know, being your word. And a lot of that comes from, and this is one of the reasons why I love scrum is it creates that accountability to the sprint goal. Hopefully in a way that is, you know, inspirational and not, um, command and control, um, mentoring. People need mentors. Achievement. This is another area where I feel modern Agile for very good reasons is missing something. So we look at performance at the team level. Absolutely makes sense. Let's not look at performance at the individual level. This can create an anti -pattern where we're now saying, well, you're better than you and that's not what this, but there needs to be some kind of an empirical feedback mechanism for an individual. understand how they're improving and that's not something I've seen thus far. Physical health, so there's your 40 hours a week and perhaps some other things and finally mental.
Brian (14:43)
Yeah. Yeah. Those are good. Yeah, I'm just trying to think through. And I don't think I can't, off the top of my head, I can't think of something I would add to that list. That's a really good list.
Leor Herzfeld (15:06)
I'm sure it'll grow. So the talk that I gave only had 12, so we've added two. So I'm sure it'll continue to grow. But like everything else, you know, perfect is the enemy of good. So, you know, what we've created here is, so we've got the list of 14 items, and then we've got this kind of shoe -hawry journey of, you know, are you even on the journey? So there's actually...
Brian (15:11)
Hahaha.
Leor Herzfeld (15:31)
tool for this on the Integral Agile website where you could go in and there's four questions for each one and if you answer at the first one, it's something like, let's take autonomy for example, the first one might say, I'm told what to do all the time. And then there's a journey from there. So it's not like you have safety or you don't have safety, you can have a little bit of safety, have a little bit of autonomy. So we created this beginner master, beginner practitioner master journey. And we've tried to set master it, you know, the objective is to get to the practitioner portion of it. We've tried to set master as like a really unattainable thing at work. Just to, you know, and if anyone gets there, it's amazing. But just to indicate that like our objective is to be practicing these things. We want general health, not expertise in every dimension.
Brian (16:11)
Ha ha. So is it kind of a, do you take kind of a survey approach with an organization that you have everyone in the organization kind of rate this and then get an overall score or how do you measure it?
Leor Herzfeld (16:32)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So where I propose this for various different enterprises. You start, so this is applicable anywhere, right? This is applicable to leaders. This is not just applicable to team members. Leaders are feeling all of these things and oftentimes in more dire ways than team members might be. But if we were gonna deploy this across the organization to get a pulse on what's actually happening, we would do this on a team by team basis. So from an individual perspective, the results will be all over the place. Every team's answers are going to have some patterns. that align based on the team's individual culture. Then if we go to the team of teams area, again, so we're gonna see things, a little bit of difference, because different teams, one team might have a stronger scrum master, and therefore their culture is a little, they might feel more psychological safety or more autonomy. So that'll let you know, right? This gives you like a real big indicator of how agile you are, because agile teams will tend to score a little bit higher on some of these. on some of these results. Anything that's happening at the team of teams level that's consistent is telling you that you've got a systemic problem in that team of teams level. And then of course, you raise it from there to the organization or to the enterprise. So the hope is where you see in an organization something lacking, these are not terribly difficult things to remediate and the remediations for them may or may not be agile.
Brian (18:06)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, I'm just, I'm fascinated by this concept and, and, and I, I like how you broke it down on different levels because you're absolutely right. I'm just sitting here trying to process it through as you're talking through it. And yeah, I can think of scenarios I've been in where we felt like the team has been great or we have a certain level of, like you said, safety or something within a team. But then we feel sort of like the organization is not listening to us or the organization has a different set of values. cultural values than the team does. That is something that I encounter quite a lot in classes too. I hear a lot of people who will say that, that our team is doing all that we can, but we feel like our organization is in a different place culturally and how do we make an impact there? How do we change that? So how would you handle that? What would you say to the teams like that, that feel like we're doing pretty well on our team, but our culture and our organization is just not. kind of in alignment with where we are.
Leor Herzfeld (19:13)
Yeah, so the trick with culture is it's very difficult to see. So this is another tool that we came up with something we call the Integral Cultural Map. So in any organization, in any given area in an organization, there's going to be one of three dominant cultures. There's going to be a risk averse, you know, rules and roles kind of a culture. Right. So that culture is going to be, you know, rife with red tape. making sure that we do things the right way. There's a process for the process for the process. And then the next kind of culture that we see is achievement oriented. This culture is gonna be very exciting. There's gonna be a lot of innovation going on. We're gonna be like results, results, results, bottom line. But the pitfall, so let me go back. Let me make sure that I talk about the healthy and unhealthy versions of these cultures. So the healthy element to the risk averse culture is obviously, you know,
Brian (19:46)
Right.
Leor Herzfeld (20:10)
we're gonna be very safe, lowercase s. So you're not gonna get a lot of dings by compliance in an environment like that. However, the rate of progress is probably gonna be pretty slow. And achieving oriented culture, very exciting, lots of great innovation, but the dark side to that might be very individualistic in terms of, you could have political infighting, you could have leaders,
Brian (20:14)
Yeah.
Leor Herzfeld (20:40)
not wanting to relinquish their own little fiefdom if it means, you know, if it's indicated that it makes sense from like some value stream mapping diagram, it makes sense to kind of break things up and create cross -functional teams. They'll say, no, no, no, I want to hold onto my teams. You know, so you'll get that as one of the dark sides of the achievement -oriented culture. And then you get what Agilists love is the people -centric culture. And that culture is going to be very much about ensuring that we have... health and morale. But the pitfall of that culture is it abandons achievement. So, you know, you might have people coming out of a meeting where everyone feels great about the conversation that took place, but nothing was actually accomplished. So there's a fourth level to this. And this is, I'm kind of like talking about something that's inside of integral theory. This is the levels portion of integral theory, if people are familiar. Then there's an integration of all three. And one of the things we try to espouse is, you need control, you need achievement, and you need morale. You have to have all three, but you don't necessarily have to have all three in every area of your enterprise. So if you have an objective that says, I want to make 10 million more dollars, but the culture of the area that is in control of achieving that objective is either we care about our people's morale or we care about making sure that nothing breaks, you're unlikely to meet that objective. So a different tool that we have that reveals these invisible cultural value schemes. And of course, the thing that creates the culture in any area of the enterprise is its immediate leader, which is why you'll see the enterprise itself might have, you know, let's say an achievement oriented culture, but then a particular organization might be very people oriented and another organization might be very, you know, rule, role, risk averse.
Brian (22:36)
Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I see exactly what you mean. And I see how those things kind of interact with each other. So tell us a little bit about, because I know you have this book that's going to be coming out. And you described it really before we got on about how it's sort of your theory there at Integral Agile. So re -imagine transformation. What are you trying to capture? with this forthcoming book.
Leor Herzfeld (23:09)
So it's really taking this thing that we've worked on for the last five years, this integral Agile approach, and breaking it down into a series of tools that people can use. Again, Agile's been very good to me, and I like it very much. I think that it's a little bit sick right now. We've seen there's been like Capital One just declared, hey, we're good, let's get rid of our coaches and scrum masters. And... I, the shine is definitely, I don't want to go so far as to say it's become a dirty word because it hasn't, um, and the industry is still growing, but the, the luster has gone off it. And that's because it's failing to the deliver the results it promises. So after people have been through a transformation two, three, four times, I've dealt with this myself, right? I'm, I'm coming to a team and they've had, you know, three coaches before and they're like, well, it hasn't worked before. Why is it going to work with you? Um, and it's almost like, I used to joke, you know, it's like, um, bad, you know, significant other syndrome. Like the person, like you're dating someone and their last three significant others, you know, treated them like garbage and they're like, they've got that trauma built up. Um, so we're just trying to help everybody with this book. The reasons why agile fails when it fails is because it's only addressing half the problem. It's addressing what you can see. Um, so what we wanted to add into it is how do we take the elements that we can't see and how do we add them back in? not from a, this is an important thing, let's do this perspective, but literally in every single element of everything you do, how do you add it in if you're giving a one -to -one? How do you add it in during sprint planning or during backlog refinement? When you're thinking about OKRs, how can we think about it from these internal and external perspectives? And the thing that we've been challenged by, that we feel pretty good about now, but it took us a really long time to get here, is how can we describe these internal processes that quite frankly many business people have no appetite for whatsoever. How can we put it in a way where they will want to give it the attention it deserves? Because if it's not given the attention it deserves, these invisible blocks, whether they're cultural elements or values mismatches or, you know. people just hate their job, right? People are not aligned with purpose. How can we do this in a way that's visible, that's simple, and that people will actually want to buy? So that's the objective of...
Brian (25:47)
I think that's an awesome take because I know one of the things that we try to do in our classes and one of the things I hear from people who come through classes a lot is just, you know, there's a lot of discussion in sort of a lofty, high ideals, wouldn't this be great if things worked in this way? But, you know, a lot of times people don't really understand, all right, well, that's the way it should be in totality. But here's what I'm dealing with on a day -to -day basis. I've got OKRs. I've got all the stuff that I've got to do. How does that change what I do on a day -to -day basis? So I think that's really wonderful. I think that's a really needed aspect of that is, you know, kind of in the practicality, how does this play out on, you know, just what we typically do on a regular basis as a business.
Leor Herzfeld (26:38)
Yeah. I mean, if it's not practical, who cares? You know, I'm a giant nerd. I love getting into theorizing and thinking about all of these things at the end of all of that conversation. If I can't say, try this, here's the way to try it. If I can't explain a concept to you in 15 minutes in a way that you can use it, I failed.
Brian (26:41)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'm right there with you. Well, this is fascinating stuff. And we're going to put a lot of links in our show notes for this episode so that you can get in touch with Leor if you want to find out some more about this or maybe find out about the book that's coming out. Maybe get on a list to be able to buy that once it's available. Also, so you can get in touch with this company at Integral Agile. But this is fascinating stuff. I really appreciate Leor, you taking the time to come on and help us understand this a little bit.
Leor Herzfeld (27:36)
Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. And I'll also note that on our site, the majority of these elements are just right there. So a lot of the stuff, the models, the diagrams, how you can actually do these things, we wanted to give that away. So we're just looking to, in a general sense, well, now we're looking to bring Agile back from the brink. I mean, I hope it's not the brink, but we want this to work. And the reason why my company exists,
Brian (28:00)
Ha ha. Leor Herzfeld (28:06) is we want to make people's lives better. Our objective is to make people's lives better at work. The first time I ever worked with a Scrum team, the difference in the way they showed up at work, the way they spoke to each other, it was night and day. They're laughing, they're happy. And I think about it, a colleague of mine once said, I'm tired of doing this agile thing. I don't need to help whatever bank make an extra $5 million. And I'm like, dude, that's not what we're doing. I mean, sure, it's a knock -on effect of what we're doing, but every life that we touch where that person feels lighter, feels more able to express themselves, we spend the majority of our times at work. And if that time is misery, then you go home drained, dejected, and you bring that energy with you to your friends, to your family, to your children. If that time is something that, you know, okay, joyful, could be, I like to think so, but even just not painful, it has an effect. So that's what inspires me and that's why we're here.
Brian (29:15)
That's awesome. I'm right there with you. Completely agree. It is important. It is important how you show up and what you do at work. It's kind of one of the things I say to people sometimes is both things can be true at the same time. It's fine. Yes, we do help from a business perspective. We're helping people be more efficient with their business and get more from less. And... really achieve higher levels of success. But at the same time, we're also helping people to have more fun at work and to enjoy their time at work, not be miserable with their time at work.
Leor Herzfeld (29:54)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I, you know, that's a good point you're bringing up. I know we're just about out of time, but I, you know, I don't want the message to get lost that this is like some touchy feely kind of a thing. Um, this is the way, if you want that 300 % boost in throughput, you need this to get there. You're not going to do it by throwing new process at the situation.
Brian (30:17)
And I'm geeky enough to just have to repeat that phrase again. This is the way. All right. Well, thanks again, Leor. I appreciate you coming on. And we'll make sure people can get in touch with you.
Leor Herzfeld (30:22)
I love it. Awesome, thank you, Brian.

#100: Navigating the Future of Agile and Scrum with Lance Dacy & Scott Dunn

Join Brian for the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as he dives into the future of Agile with fan favorites Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy. Listen in as they explore the evolving role of AI, the continuous need for leadership innovation, and the Agile community's journey towards greater accountability and effectiveness.
Overview
In the 100th episode, our expert panel celebrates by examining the latest trends and enduring challenges in the Agile industry.
They discuss the critical need for organizations to adapt and innovate, particularly through leadership and management strategies that foster high-performing teams.
This episode is a deep dive into how embracing change and technological advancement can propel the Agile industry forward, ensuring that organizations not only survive but thrive in an ever-evolving business landscape.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:10] - Join Brian in a special celebration of the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, featuring a look forward to future innovations in Agile!
[1:43] - Brian kicks off the landmark 100th episode with a forward-looking panel on Agile and Scrum's future, featuring experts Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy.
[4:01] - Listen in as Brian asks the panel to share their insights on emerging trends within Agile and Scrum, setting the stage for a thought-provoking conversation.
[4:15] - Lance highlights key trends including solutions for scaling challenges, the integration of AI in Scrum, and innovations in leadership and management.
[6:54] - Scott emphasizes the enduring impact of Agile and Scrum in driving organizational enhancements.
[11:36] - Lance underscores the critical need for leadership and management to adopt innovative approaches and acknowledge generational changes to effectively engage and support their teams.
[13:30] - Addressing the provocative statement that 'Agile is dead,' Brian explores its implications on the real-world demand for Agile compared to its perceived necessity.
[14:50] - Brian, along with Scott and Lance, urges the Agile community to recognize its shortcomings and learning experiences, which they believe may be contributing to negative perceptions of Agile, and how the community could approach it differently.
[24:10] - Brian encourages you to try out Goat Bot, Mountain Goat software’s Scrum & Agile AI tool. This free tool is trained to handle all your Agile and Scrum queries—start asking your questions today!
[25:58] - The panel explores the impact of AI on enhancing agility in organizational practices in estimating, development, and so much more.
[32:20] - Brian stresses the importance of using AI as a tool to support, not supplant, discussing ways it can improve rather than replace human efforts.
[43:23] - Brian shares a big thank you to Scott and Lance for joining him on the 100th episode of the show.
[43:44] - Brian thanks you, the listeners, for your support and shares his excitement for the future of the show, inviting you to send us your feedback or share your great ideas for episodes of the show. Just send us an email.
[44:57] - We invite you to like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast.
[45:16] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, or CSPO, or Better User Stories Course. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Scott Dunn
Lance Dacy
Goat Bot
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.
Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian (00:00)
Agile Mentors, welcome. This is our 100th episode. Can you believe it? We've been doing this for 100 episodes now. So first, before we even get into today's episode, I just wanna say huge, huge thank you to you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for giving us feedback. Thank you for giving us suggestions. We would not have made it to 100 without you, so. Huge thanks to you. And to celebrate, we're trying to do something different here for the 100th and not just let it go by and not mark this occasion. So what I wanted to do was to have some of our regulars, our favorites on together so that we could really kind of look ahead. So let me introduce our panel for today. First of all, I've got Mr. Scott done with us. So Scott, welcome.
Scott Dunn (01:00)
Thank you, Brian. Glad to be here. This is awesome. Congratulations. That's so cool.
Brian (01:04)
That, thank you, thank you, thank you very much. And then another favorite that we have on quite frequently is Lance Dacey is with us as well.
Lance Dacy (01:13)
Hey Brian, congratulations once again. I remember us just talking about this when you were starting out with podcasts and you look at 100. You do this every week, right? Is it a, has it been a hundred weeks? Wow.
Brian (01:22)
Yeah. Yeah, we do this every week. We missed a couple. Our listeners probably know there's been a couple of times in there we've taken some small breaks around holidays and other things. But yeah, this is going on just about every week since then.
Lance Dacy (01:38)
Well, congratulations. That's amazing.
Brian (01:40)
Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I'm amazed and as I said, very, very grateful. And it really hit home to me when I went to my first conference after doing this and people would come up and say, hey, I listen. That was really a cool moment. And I always tell people, hey, I'm speaking to other conferences, come and say hi. Come and say hi to me this year. So as I said, I wanted to have a panel so that we could talk about, we've been...
Scott Dunn (01:40)
Amazing.
Brian (02:10)
doing this for 100 episodes and lots has changed, lots have changed over the past year and a half, almost two years now that we've been doing this. We kicked off on, I think it was May 18th, 2022. So we're coming up on two years of doing this. And my thought was, what's gonna happen over the next 100 episodes? Like, where are we gonna be in the next two years? Where are we gonna be in the next five years? What kind of things are changing? What are we going to think about stuff over that time period? So I wanted to have a panel to kind of comment and discuss this with us and Where I wanted to start is maybe not where I think most people are going to think I'm going to go But I want to start with kind of the agile industry kind of the way things are going now for Coaches consultants scrum masters product owners So I'm gonna throw this as an open question and whichever of you wants to go first, go first. But what do you think we're seeing right now? What kind of trends are you seeing in that realm? And where do you think it's gonna, where do you think it's going?
Scott Dunn (03:26)
I nominate Lance to go first.
Lance Dacy (03:28)
Okay, here, obviously they're thinking about Scott. It looks like he's got something to say. Okay, well, that's a tough question because I think it still depends on the industry and the organization. It's all made up of people still. So there's still a lot of variables, I think, that affect the way that we do our jobs as transition coaches or business agility coaches or agile coaches, whatever you wanna call us. I think...
Brian (03:29)
Hahaha
Lance Dacy (03:59)
You know, I think there's still plenty of organizations out there that are struggling to bring their people together to deliver great products. And it's not because they don't want to, it's just lacking the skills and the frameworks and things to do that. So I still think that there's some organizations out there that benefit from saying, hey, let's just start from what we know and start doing this and then adapt to it as it changes. But I think a lot of times organizations, I think scaling is one of those big. problem child out there that people have kind of learned how to do this with smaller teams and smaller parts of the organization, but getting the whole organization to collaborate together. And of course, they look to another framework for that. And I'm kind of framework agnostic, especially when it comes to scaling, because I think at the end of the day, if you can't do it well in the small environment, it's going to be very difficult to do it well in the large environment. So the best thing you can do is kind of analyze your own situation. with like value stream mappings and cross-functional teams and things like that, and try to make sure that you're organizing yourselves and preventing waste as much as possible, I think is one of the big things. But I've also seen a kind of an uptick in, of course, these practices in agile being distributed over non-software domains. We've seen that for a long time, that's not necessarily a new thing, but I think it's gravitating more. to that. But I think the biggest one is really what we're talking about today is how is this AI stuff or what we have been talking about, how is that affecting this? And I think it's here quicker than we really think, or already here. And so trying to figure out how to handle, you know, data driven decision making based on that and, you know, using these tools to integrate. And then I think the last one that I would talk about is leadership and management. I think There's a specific type of environment and culture required for these people to thrive and collaborate and leadership and management has not seen a lot of innovation in the last 150 years. So, I find myself spending a lot of time coaching executives and mid-level managers on how to foster an environment that we can know how we practice psychological safety, empowering people and making it a great place to work, especially in this remote distributed environment. So I don't know if it's... All that's fairly new, but I think it's more prevalent than it was in the past. So I don't know, Scott, go ahead.
Scott Dunn (06:28)
No, that's good stuff. And I've only got 35 points I want to walk through. So one, I think we had all agreed that this idea of agile seems to be the common experience we're seeing as we're still coaching out there in organizations. They think that they've already done that. That's in the past. What's next? Or they settled in like, we're just hybrid. And it's not a. So help us move forward. It's like, no, we weren't done that. Here's this other thing. But the other things they're needing. And I like it, Lance. You kind of mentioned a couple of other words that people use, like organizational improvement, organizational chiasm, these ideas, like, hey, we're trying to get better. And I almost rather use those words because if I use a word they think they know, then we've kind of lost the fact that, you know, we're there. It strikes me, it's a little bit like marketing. They're just like, nope, marketing's done. And now we're doing this. And like, no, marketing's always learning, moving forward, growing. And I think we're gonna see this idea they realize, like, oh. Agile wasn't like a destination we check the boxes now they're on Scrum team. So that's one thing we're continuing to see. And the reason I'm saying that is the problems are still the same problems. We're talking earlier about capacity management, visibility, clear, you know, can execs see where we are in these larger initiatives? And the answer is like, no, they're still not doing those well. That speaks to whole org. And two quick stories on that is one, we're working with a company that decided like, yes, we're going to take this whole org approach.
Lance Dacy (07:27)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (07:45)
And once they, within a few months, they'd gone from cycle time of 100 days down to 10. They had tripled their productivity. They went from one release every two weeks to seven in a day, right? But that's because the whole org is represented as they're rolling out, actually holistically. Let's contract that with a company we're just talking to this week. I was trying to describe getting a group together, it's representatives across other departments who have people who have authority, who have influence, finances, et cetera. they could not grasp the idea that there'd be a team working on improvement items across the org. It took several explanations, like I'm not talking at the team level. I'm talking about the team that's working across the org level. And what part of this comes back to is I think of the idea of I'm a manager. This is my own like awakening recently. If I'm a manager, let's say I'm the software engineering manager, I'm the director, my concern, this is my mistake earlier, my concern is not, are we doing ads all right? My concern is, is my boss getting what they want? If my boss wants clear reporting on where we're at the features, I don't care if it's Agile, waterfall hybrid doesn't matter. Did you show me a nice pretty report that gives them what they need? That's what I, that's what I do not wanna be called into her office on Friday about, right? So I keep mistaken, like they wanna do Agile, right? No, they wanna check the box and what they're accountable for and meet those expectations. And I know the higher up the or we go, the less they probably understand about Agile. At least that's the surveys that I'm running is like a... a 20, 30, 50% gap between what these people say their managers think they understand about Agile and what the people actually do in the work know that they understand Agile or not, which is always a large gap. A good example of that is remote. I'm not trying to kick a dead horse when it's down or whatever the saying is, but we've talked about remote a lot, but here's what we're seeing is, I think the basis of a lot of this return to office is simply, I don't know my people are working or not, I just need to see them.
Brian (09:30)
Hahaha.
Scott Dunn (09:41)
I can't tell, and I can't see them, I can't tell, and I get nervous, which really means I don't really have an understanding of fundamental aspects of how work is done using transparency, inspect and adapt, all that, right? And because I can't really, I don't really have mastery over that, I'm gonna need you in the office at least three times a week. Because I don't, I'm not really watching the work anyways, but at least I know you're showing up, and I'm accountable to make sure people are busy and working. That's, you know, I draw it down to its most rudimentary level. To me, it's a reflection of the capability of management. You mentioned that, Lance, about leadership. I think we're starting to see
Lance Dacy (09:41)
Right.
Brian (09:52)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (10:11)
What we probably will see is this real cutting line of those who get it and trust their people and they work. And we've seen, you know, 10X, 100X on, on experts really let loose to do their best work and those who are simply like, you know, managed in that traditional sense and all the drawbacks and your loss of talent, all that. I think the companies will have to pay the price eventually. Thinking back to the time when people didn't really want to go ad drug because they thought it was a fad. And it didn't take but a few years, like, um, I could be wrong.
Brian (10:35)
Yep.
Scott Dunn (10:38)
maybe that is a thing we need to do, right? And then everyone gets on board, but there was a lot of kicking and screaming and doubting the early years. I think we're gonna see that with remote work is made like the proving ground of do you really work this way or not as a manager? Do you get this or not? So those are some of the trends I see. I still see a lot of people still in the very fundamentals because they think these things are already understood and known and we're moving on to something next. There is no next. I think the pace of change out there is if you're not working this way as an organization, you're losing ground already. Like... while they're listening to the podcast.
Lance Dacy (11:08)
It's like the remote, you know, what you were just saying is like the remote is the automated test for your operating system at work is like, if it works like that, then we're likely doing some really good things. But you know, I remember, um, I'm going to show my age here though, but prior to my technology career, I worked at FedEx and I was in leadership and management, managing their third largest hub here in Fort Worth, Texas, uh, the air hub, you know, and FedEx did a great job teaching leadership and management and all that kind of stuff.
Brian (11:08)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (11:14)
Thank you.
Lance Dacy (11:36)
And I remember them focusing on the idea that you cannot lead and manage people currently how you are going to in the future because they were talking about how the new generation is coming on board and they just won't tolerate certain things. And I think you hit it on the head with that, Scott, that if these managers don't learn how to lead and manage with this newer generation, two or three removed from what I'm talking about. you're not going to have any employees because they will not tolerate it. They do not work that way. They work radically different. You know, I'm going to categorize money as a gen X person. And I'm going to say we were taught to be very individualistic, climb the corporate ladder, you know, keep your pain to yourself, just grin and bear it, fight through it, do the best you can and be autonomous and don't rely on a lot of people. And, you know, don't trust anybody. You know, the latchkey kids, we just were independent. We learned how to do it all. And that's not necessarily bad. We needed to be managed a different way than these people now. I, and I've got four kids, so I see it. It's like, they're not going to tolerate this stuff. So you hit it on the head with that leadership. I mean, coverage, a broad spectrum, but, um, Mike gave a talk in Oh nine. I'll never forget this. When I first went to the scrum gathering in Orlando and Oh nine, and he was on a panel and he said it really succinctly. He said, I hope we don't call it agile or scrum anymore. It's just the way that we work.
Brian (12:36)
Yeah.
Lance Dacy (12:54)
And he was referencing object oriented programming. You know, he said, we don't call it object oriented programming anymore, it's just programming, you know, object one. And so it's like, yeah, we're not going to, let's not have this debate. We want to build the highest business value things as early as possible with the least amount of costs who can argue that that's not the right way to run an organization. So let's not debate it. Let's not use the buzzwords. Let's just do it.
Brian (13:01)
Right.
Scott Dunn (13:12)
Yes.
Brian (13:18)
Yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, kind of back to what Scott said, too, there is a marketing issue here, right? There is this kind of idea of people are so saturated with the terms that they've experienced them and they feel like, hey, I know that I know what that is, I don't need to be I don't need to learn any more about that. And now I'm just kind of moving forward when they don't really. And that's what drives all the people out there that are saying Agile is dead and all the Agile is dead speakers and all that stuff. It's not dead. And if you listen to them, they don't say it's dead. They just say, people don't understand what it is. And so they're doing it wrong. I think there's kind of this interesting dynamic going on. Right, because on one hand, I think we're at a time when
Scott Dunn (13:54)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (14:03)
businesses could benefit the most from doing things like Agile because they're gonna get the most with less by doing these kinds of approaches. However, at the same time, we're hearing stories of entire Agile departments being let go in different organizations. And we're seeing people who struggle after coming through classes and stuff finding work as a scrum master, even though there's a demand. There's high demand still for these kinds of things. So there's sort of this dichotomy that's going on of, I think there's a slump going on in the agile demand when the need for it is high. And maybe that's a marketing, right. Maybe that's a marketing thing that we haven't done a good job, but I wanna propose one other thing here and I wanna get your guys take on this.
Lance Dacy (14:51)
than ever.
Brian (15:02)
The people who say Agile is dead and they say that, we shouldn't be doing this because we should call it something else. Because no one understands what it is anymore. And that's why they say it's dead. I have generally thought of those, and I think many of us sometimes fault the leadership a little bit in this to say, they didn't invest enough to understand it. They didn't really support it, right? Kind of that mentality. But I think that as an Agile community, that we need to own up. Like, I think we just need to step forward and say, you know what, we have not always done it right. And there's been plenty, you know, I talked about this in the Scrum Master class. There's plenty of Scrum Masters out there who think that the job of being a Scrum Master is to schedule meetings. And that is it. And...
Scott Dunn (15:55)
Oh.
Brian (15:58)
You know, those people, you can understand why a company would say, I don't need that person. I don't need a person to do that. And then all of a sudden they're letting go all of their Scrum Masters because they think that's what a Scrum Master is. So I think we have to own up a little bit to say, we're partly responsible for this, right? We're partly responsible for the bad impression that Agile has and we just gotta own it and say, yes, that's true, but that's because we've made mistakes as well and we're learning.
Lance Dacy (16:17)
Thank you.
Brian (16:28)
And now we know better, right? Now we know what we're supposed to do. But the pretense that we maybe came into it with, saying, hey, we know everything and we know how to do this stuff, was what caused the downfall, I think. What do you think?
Scott Dunn (16:32)
Hmm.
Lance Dacy (16:44)
It's like the overlay though of saying here, here's how you do it, right? I think what we got wrong or not necessarily wrong, just we didn't know any better at the time is, I've worked with 20 companies and this way work, let's try it. And then if it doesn't work, we'll adapt it. Cause I think it's always been about that. But you know, just like any approach, you know, the effectiveness of that approach depends a lot on how it's implemented, supported, adapted, taught. And I feel like what we should just start focusing on, you know, it's hard to put this in one term, Maybe it's just like helping and facilitating the creation of high performing teams. Like that's an unarguable thing that you would want to have. What's happening is the organizations either whether they misunderstand the role or have a bad experience in the past with it because you can't say their experience is invalid, right? Everybody has their different experience and opinion and what they went through. And I acknowledge that. But if you think of any professional sports teams, what's happening in the organizations in this world?
Brian (17:20)
Yeah.
Lance Dacy (17:43)
is they're getting rid of the coach of the team. And what we have to do is start recognizing what does the coach really do is trying to make the team high performing. You know, in professional sports, it's to score points and win the game, right? Well, kind of trying to do the same thing here, you would never get rid of the coaching position saying, well, all they do is watch film and tell the team what they're doing wrong. No, I mean, Andy Reid, you know, the Kansas City Chiefs, they won the Super Bowl, arguably the best football team in the world, if that's what you're using as a bar. And...
Scott Dunn (17:46)
Thank you.
Brian (17:55)
No.
Scott Dunn (18:03)
Thank you.
Lance Dacy (18:12)
And so they've arrived, they're the best. Do we get rid of Andy Reid? No, they need him even more because they get complacent and they get this idea that we don't need to change anything. And I see plenty of teams like that. It's like, no, the coach has one of the hardest jobs in the world is to tell the best performing team in the world they can get better. And the organization sometimes is the wet blanket and suffocating the environment for which that team can perform.
Scott Dunn (18:16)
Thank you.
Lance Dacy (18:37)
And I feel like, you know, instead of whether you want to call it a scrum master and agile codes or whatever, it's almost hard to use those terms. Some of these people anymore, because they'll just sit there and argue with you about it, but let's just say I'm trying to coach a high performing team and how can you argue with that, you know?
Brian (18:50)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't think you can. Scott, what do you think?
Scott Dunn (18:53)
If I was to ask you, well, if I was to ask both of you, do traditional management, whoever's making hiring decisions, do they know what an agile coach is and what's in telling them that they're doing well or not? And I would argue the most don't. And I think that's why we see a lot of people, I mean, in the end, people follow the money. I don't call people for work and their own self-interest. So if I can just update my LinkedIn profile and change it to agile coach. and whoever interviews me can't tell a difference. And that means I get a salary bump and of course, or let's just tell it like it is. And I think your listeners, I know you to be good with this. If I can just take a two day class and I'm gonna get a 25% salary increase, whether or not I get it or not, let's not even go there. Like I passed the test, I've got the certification. And unfortunately, I think that's more the dynamics of any given market is like, oh, it jumps to the solution, right? I just, you know. hire these scrum masters and I've done the agile thing. And even though any of us would say like, that's much bigger than that, this agile coaching involved is much more than the two day class that you need, et cetera. But think about that. I'd look at the people that I've trained, which, you know, is thousands. How many companies actually came back and said, we need help as an agile coach? 20, 22 dozen, right? That we actually went in and did real transformation work. So that's them not asking. That's them like, no, we got it. I think that simplicity of understanding Do I take a solution or do I go through a mindset change? Well, taking the solutions is going to be easier. So I'm going to jump to that rather than like reflect, like, I think we need to change. Change is hard, we agree. So back to the point of like, are we to blame? I see some of that market dynamics, but we do that with diets. We do that with the career. Also Greg, we wouldn't just grab something easier than actually go through the change. So I do agree with you, but I think it's a good point. How we try to re-message that when the world already thinks I understand it. I think we're watching this happen. When I look at companies in that space,
Brian (20:30)
Yep.
Scott Dunn (20:42)
They are using different terms and phrases. I think that moves us away from, maybe that's an aspect of like, where to blame. The other interesting thing, Lance, you mentioned about the coach and we don't fire the coach. And I think that's the best example I go to is, look, I'm a business owner of a professional sports team. I'm watching the dollars and I don't wanna have to pay Andy Reid millions, but I know it gets results. And I don't wanna coach for the offensive line. I don't wanna coach for defensive, but the results are clear whether that works or not.
Brian (21:03)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (21:08)
The other thing that's interesting is you watch some of these coaches, like when it changed in college football with name engine, name engine and likeness in terms of attracting students for different reasons. Like I can make money during college. I don't have to hope I make the pros. And how that changed the game significantly to where some coaches like, forget it. I don't want to play this game where they're now empowered to make their own decisions on where they want to go and not just sit on the bench. If I want to sit on the bench, the transfer portal. So you're watching dynamics play out on what does that mean to bring that change in? I do think in the end, there's probably a simple split on, there's an organization that needs to continuously improve and look for ways to do that. Not as one-off projects of, hey, let's do an improvement project here. But as a feeder backlog, but simply there's always ways to improve and stuff's always coming in and we're always working that as a layer of the way the organization runs. When I see a chief agility officer, some of these other roles, I think they get it. I think manufacturing systems get that with like lean thinking and like, That's just what we do. We're always looking for that. I don't think software engineering. And this organization get it. And to be honest, my friends, you can tell me if I'm off. I don't know if they got sold that truth of this is always going. It is not put all your engineers on the teams, hire a scrum master, change someone's title of product owner and you're good, right? But I think that's what they kind of thought it was. And then they're done, but that's a team level. It's not organization level and it just sits there. So I guess there is someone with the blame because maybe that's what they were taught and not the bigger picture as well.
Brian (22:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Dunn (22:35)
Perhaps.
Lance Dacy (22:36)
The rebranding is interesting the way you said that. I don't, you know, let's call it something other than Agilent or Scrum, whatever you were talking about. And that's what organizations do when things are broken, is they reorg. We're gonna just change the name of it. It's like following a diet plan and going, well, I don't like that it doesn't let me have sugar, so I'm just gonna call it something different. The constraint.
Brian (22:48)
Hmm. Yep, you're right.
Scott Dunn (22:50)
Yes, yes
Lance Dacy (23:02)
You know, the constraint is there to make you better. And I think that's what a lot of people don't get about, let's say the Scrum framework has a lot of constraints built in not to make it harder to do your work. And I will argue it's harder. Like I tell people all the time, this is a harder way to work. It's not an easier way because it requires all of us to come together. But you just said it so eloquently, Scott, I just thought about that, that they just, who cares what we call it.
Brian (23:03)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (23:16)
Yes, for sure.
Lance Dacy
(23:26) the organization and the leadership is stuck by saying that at their level, all they gotta do is call it something different and now it's solved. All I gotta do is change the org chart on a spreadsheet. And I can't tell you how many organizations I work with where I'll get a note and say, well, we're going through a reorg right now, so we gotta hold off on this training or do this or do that. It's like, well, you just went through one, I've worked with companies that have been their coach for a very long time. It's like, how many of these are we gonna go through? What's the purpose? When are we going to start realizing that it's not who reports to who, it's who's doing the work and what's the environment and culture we've created for them. And I feel like leadership and management, I don't even care if it's software. Like Scott, you're saying software, we really don't get it. I'm not sure any company really, there's a few out there that I would say their leadership and management's working really well, but the operating system for the culture is broken. And, you know, we know that for a long time as agile coaches, but it's like, there's some benefits to be gained even while that's happening.
Brian (23:54)
Yeah.
Lance Dacy (24:24)
that we can get some efficiencies going here and they're still better off. But we've hit that next level, the problems are more complex now. People and it's leadership and it's hard to change those because they've been doing it for 150 years this way. You know?
Scott Dunn (24:34)
Yes.
Brian (24:34)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (24:40)
Yes. Yeah.
Brian (24:41)
Yeah. Well, we can't leave the episode without talking about AI, at least a little bit, because I know you brought that up already. But yeah, we definitely need to think about AI in the future. And yeah, yeah. Because I know we talked about that a little bit when we were meeting here before we started to record. But just curious.
Scott Dunn (24:46)
Hahaha!
Lance Dacy (24:52)
leaders and managers.
Scott Dunn (24:54)
Yes.
Brian (25:06)
Where do you think that whole thing is going? What I should say is, how do you think it's going to affect agility? That's the big question.
Lance Dacy (25:17)
You want me to go again first, Scott, or is he going to flip flop?
Scott Dunn (25:20)
No, no, we're not flip-flopping. It's you, man. You got it. I'm not changing.
Brian (25:23)
Hahaha
Lance Dacy (25:23)
Okay. He has some reason to do this. You know, I feel like I'm walking into a trap here. Um, the way he's going to trap me. Um, well, and you know, we were kind of talking before we even, you know, started the podcast, but I was mentioning, you know, project management wise, you know, that I believe AI can bring a lot to just helping teams become more efficient and productive just at a superficial level by simply
Scott Dunn (25:28)
With pretty...
Brian (25:29)
No, that's a wrong answer, Lance.
Lance Dacy (25:50)
if we're talking about Scrum, let's say, because a lot of us practice Scrum and we teach it, you think about a sprint planning exercise and how often it's very difficult to just simply explain how to come up with your capacity for the next two weeks, and based on your skillset and the work needing to be done, are we sure and confident that the work we've committed in this next one, two, three, or four week period that we can actually get it done? as a cross-functional team within the constraint of getting something usable to the end user. I think a lot of people forget that as well. So I feel like automating things like sprint planning where you can feed in a profile of all of your different skill sets and their capacity. We no longer languish over this big spreadsheet that I used to use back 10, 12 years ago. There's a lot of better ways to do it nowadays, but I think eventually you just say, based on this team and what they've given me, here's how much work we can do. feed in the work and say here's the best sequence of the work. You know, the harder part is fitting, you know, utilization is not really a topic I want to get into because I think it's always misunderstood. But once you account for all of the slack time that you need to, you want to be as utilized as possible. I think using AI to help figure out what's the best path. Like I do an exercise in my class where I give them 10 backlog items and based on the different skills, capacity, and things that need to be done, what's the best fit? Right, so in data science, we talk about fitting the model. Why not use AI to help us be the best sequencing of the work with the highest value and the best way to use our capacity? So automatic task assignment, just like we do with calendars now, where people can feed in the work they need to do and it'll create the best calendar fit to maximize your workload. Automated code is coming, you know, we're already here. You know, automated. backlog creation, chat bots, AI driven testing. I think all of that is, if not here already around the corner, that's gonna affect, hopefully in a good way, the way that teams do that. Now, we can have a whole nother topic of how that affects product and marketing, because I think the biggest issue we have is getting closer to the user, and understanding and having empathy for them, because too often we get caught up in our own world that we're just...
Brian (28:03)
Yep.
Lance Dacy (28:10)
languishing through trying to get the work out. Well, why are we doing the work is the real reason and what's the best way we can get that work to the user that solves their problem. So I'll pause there. There's a hundred things I could go in. I had 35 bullet points. I have about 110, because I love this stuff, AI and data science and all that stuff. But Scott, I'd like to hear you had some good ideas in our pre-talk as well.
Scott Dunn (28:14)
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you inviting me out to the Lance Dacey podcast. I just want to say thank you for that. Right when he drank his water too.
Brian (28:37)
Hahaha! Weird.
Lance Dacy (28:44)
Right. I can't respond. Let me take a scotch now that I can respond.
Brian (28:46)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (28:49)
Yeah, he just needs to take a drink. He's ready to go. I know I love it. I love all the ideas in the Thoughtsland. So on my particular view, when we look at the companies we're helping, so we're Atlassian partners, so I'm watching what they're doing. And I mentioned about the fact that it can automatically do like acceptance criteria, you can ask. Anything about, take all the, what we used to call it, the tribal knowledge. It's gonna do that for you. I don't need to track down who's Lucy whomever. I'm just gonna ask it and it knows. I can say, give me a spreadsheet of the people involved with this. What's the background of this project? Any of that tribal knowledge is like, it's already there now. All that data sitting in Confluence, and Jira, et cetera, ability to create tickets. I'm not going and manually creating tickets anymore. I just say, create a ticket for this thing. So all those add up to lots of saving, time savings, all the manual stuff, anything that you just already know. And everyone hates making the tickets and doing so. it's going to take care of that stuff for you automatically. On the dev and engineering side, I'm seeing a lot around what seems to be promising, impossible, certainly code reviews, like there's a template of things that you know you're checking for in code reviews, readiness to go to production. Can it create these models and things? I think we'll wait to see. We're talking about the case tools, but I believe it will because it's not limitless on when we're creating basic applications. If you take your simplest thing like hello world, you know. or a basic screen that's only got five things or a login screen, there's only so many permutations what's gonna happen with that. And it can learn those things and do those things. Software engineering is your biggest cost for software companies, these engineers, and they're hard to find, and you got time zone issues and all these other things. Everyone's looking for ways to reduce cost right now. We've got issues of just getting the talent and the source, and you got parts of these engineers' work that they do not wanna be doing anyways. So I think you're gonna see a lot of those things put pressure on figuring that stuff out. But between the computing power that we're talking about, how much can be handled by those graphics chips and how much information is out there, I think you're gonna see real wins of measurable significance that's gonna be proven out and certainly driven by the business leaders themselves trying to find where can we reduce the cost with the promise of some of these things. But those are some that I've already seen. We're definitely watching, as I mentioned,
Brian (30:43)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (31:12)
on the Scrum developer side, just saying like, what's happening out there? And just take a look and see what we can do. But you're gonna start finding the simpler solutions that are gonna be chipped away at first. I think about the self-driving cars. I remember thinking there's no way the car can handle all these, you know, what felt like limitless situations. It really isn't. There's only so many things happening on the roads and they have slowly learned to do that. I think it's gonna be the same on the engineering side as well.
Brian (31:31)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with both of you. I kind of think that I've taken a stance on it, like in the past, I just see it as a tool. It's a more advanced tool and it can do some things better than we can right now. There's some things that does really well and there's some things that right now it's not very good at. And I think it's important to try to understand that, right? I'm not gonna, you know. I think I've come to a place where I would never say, I don't think it could do X, Y, Z, because I think that eventually it can. I think that there's gonna be things it can do. And it's just a matter of time before it can do pretty much anything that we could be doing right now. Even right now, one of the things it's really, really bad at is having ideas. It doesn't really...
Scott Dunn (32:10)
Right.
Brian (32:30)
brainstorm or it can give you ways of, it can give you some little tidbits and things that you can build upon. But having used it to help try to write a blog post or anything like that, well, here's an experiment, right? Go to any, your favorite AI and ask it for 10 business ideas based on whatever, just, Uh...
Lance Dacy (33:01)
Of course it's not going to be good at that.
Brian (33:03)
Well, no, it'll give you, it'll give you 10.
Scott Dunn (33:03)
There's a creativity problem right there. We have a problem with creativity. I see it.
Lance Dacy (33:07)
I'm just kidding, bro.
Brian (33:08)
Yeah, it'll give you 10, but then go back and ask it and do a new chat, ask it again. Do a new chat, ask it a third time. Compare the answers you got across all three. And what you'll see is it's a lot of reused stuff, right? And the reason that it's recycling it, the reason it's reusing it is because this is a large language model. This is pulling from what it's been trained on, right? It doesn't invent a new thing itself.
Lance Dacy (33:33)
Mm-hmm. Create new you
Brian (33:38)
Right, now again, I'm not saying that it can't do that in the future, but what we have today is not a creative source in that way. It has to have the training data, even image, kind of AI image generators, that's built on what it's trained on. So you can't train it to a point to say, give me a picture of something that you haven't been trained on, right? weird picture that you have nothing in your database to go back to and use as a reference. It can't do that because it can't imagine, right? Yeah.
Scott Dunn (34:18)
Yes, that's the key.
Lance Dacy (34:22)
I was working with a company, they do ads, helping people come up with ads. So a lot of marketing spend money out there, right? You can tell it what kind of market you want to go into, what your competitors are doing, and very quickly feed it some images, feed it a few websites, and it'll give you 100 different ads with the words and everything you want to take on it, and already give it a conversion score. Like...
Brian (34:44)
Yeah.
Lance Dacy (34:45)
this ad should get this amount. And it was amazing to me, because I kind of struggle with that anyway, as a business owner, creatively coming up with content and ads and things like that. Like we were talking about earlier, I don't think on this podcast, but like being a co-pilot, having the AI stuff be a co-pilot where we kind of use it as a tool. I think eventually it'll be vice versa, ironically, where we'll be the co-pilots. I think... You like personalized user experience, creativity type things like, you know, how we do AB testing and stuff. Why not let AI do a lot of that user research and spin up the code very easily and figure out click patterns and things like that. Like I could say, I need nine different designs for this one screen. I mean, that used to take weeks, if not months for a designer to sit and attend, I'm not trying to bash their field. I love working with them. And. They're very creative people, but I feel like that's going to be the next step with this AI is, hey, give me nine options. And then that designer spends less time creatively. They get better ideas sometimes. Maybe some of them don't like that. I don't know. I'm not a creative person like that. But I can see that helping me in saying, hey, I don't have to hire these nine marketing people or five marketing people. I can just say, hey, let's look at those things. So I think that user, that creativity, Brian, is what you were hitting on imagining things.
Brian (36:02)
Yeah.
Lance Dacy (36:03)
Yeah, give it a lot of data can give you options and then you can take that and come up with the ideas as a human, but yeah, eventually that'll all be taken over too, I think it's all taken over the world. T1000, here we come.
Brian (36:15)
I think you've got to have one of the concepts that's out there is referring to these as agents and having multiple agents that will carry out a different task for you. And I really think that's when I think about the future of this kind of stuff and how this would affect a typical software development team, that's what I see. We have hierarchies in our organizations that exist. And those are essentially different layers of agents, right?
Lance Dacy (36:23)
Yeah.
Brian (36:43)
And I think that that's what we're going to see with software development teams and other things is we'll have a deployed network of agents and these, these AI agents will speak to each other and they'll, they'll refine what each other do. Uh, right. And it makes it easier for us, but again, we've got to have the idea to generate it, to start it, right? It just, it can't do that on its own right now.
Lance Dacy (36:57)
make it easier for us.
Scott Dunn (37:03)
Cheers. There's definitely a few things where I've just been popping in, where I had to do some legal docs and I just went there and had it write them. They were great. Just fill in the blanks. I was waiting to get content back from someone about a speaker, maybe somebody to go about Mark Kilby on remote and waiting and waiting. I'm like, dog gone. I just wouldn't ask, you know, chat GPT tell me about Mark Kilby, what he does and grab that. And it did a great job. Put that out there. I didn't need, I didn't need someone else to do it. I didn't need to wait for that.
Brian (37:31)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (37:34)
And I don't even look for creative art anymore. I simply say, give me this art. I do it in Creative Cloud. Give me that, and then you know, good enough's good enough. I move, because it's like you're touching on the delays on some of the things that can be the killer of that. I think in the same way back in the day, Sudhnyalanshi said that you're dating yourself. And I remember when I was younger, we just had electricity for the first, I'm just kidding. But think about the first time when you're telling people like, no, the computer could do that for you.
Lance Dacy (37:35)
I'll see you later.
Scott Dunn (38:02)
I feel like we're becoming a lot of companies now like, no, AI could do that for you because they just don't know. If they're working a certain way and they've been in that company for 20 years, they think, no, my job is to create the new insurance for them and then send that, no, you don't have to do all that. So I think it'll be a redistribution because for all of us to see here right now and say, I've let go of thinking there's limits to this and that's where I've come to last few weeks. And we're, and we're.
Lance Dacy (38:23)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (38:26)
Well, I'm going to, I feel, I feel we're cutting edge. Your audience may say differently, Brian, but I feel like we're cutting. I feel like we're cutting edge. And if we're just coming to realization, there's not limits. Think about your traditional worker who's not necessarily a knowledge worker, they're just in the office. They have a certain role. It's been not too different over the last 10, 20 years. They have no idea. I probably could cut that. You mentioned Lance about the ads and I was seeing something recently that said that those AI ads can cut, can cut the design time by 90%.
Brian (38:31)
Yeah
Lance Dacy (38:46)
Yeah. I would totally agree. I mean, I tried it and you just like you were saying, waiting on delays to me is my biggest thing. Like the best thing we can do for an organization is a value stream mapping of some sort and say, where does the cycle times killing us? There's so much low hanging fruit there that you could turn that into millions of dollars. And if we were just quit articulating words for that, let's just go do it. I feel like that's what AI is gonna do for us. We were talking about the, Mike's
Brian (38:55)
now.
Lance Dacy (39:22)
written a book on user stories and all that. So I'm going to use that as an example, as a product backlog entry point to getting work done. And I think we were talking about this before the podcast. And I feel like eventually we're just going to have a user say, as a user, I need to be able to pay by MasterCard on this screen and make sure the error message says this. And if it is successful, do that. And we won't need programmers. The computer will take that. And it'll write the code for that. It'll deploy the code and it'll say, what do you think about that? And so when you talk about this with agile, but I don't know what we're gonna have these, we're just gonna have users that can now have software created for them. Just like I can an ad, you know, it's like, I'm gonna have this design created, but I speak to it in natural language. Who cares if it's C++, COBOL or JavaScript or Python or whatever, it doesn't matter anymore. The computer will decide. and write it, deploy it, and manage it, and take all the complexity out of it. That's eventually where I think we're headed.
Brian (40:23)
OK, I just want to state this out there for all the listeners. Make sure you at the right person on this. It's Lance Dacey who said that all the programmers are losing their jobs. All right, just make sure you get it right. That's who said it. Uh.
Lance Dacy (40:36)
Oh my gosh.
Scott Dunn (40:40)
Here's to seeing you all again.
Lance Dacy (40:41)
Did I really say all? I just said it's going to be a disruptor. I thought, but you know, I'm sorry. So just like I think you like your next designers, I think software programmers are just highly creative and great people. So I mean, no, uh, you know, no, just be on the lookout, find a way to contribute to the fact that your job.
Scott Dunn (40:45)
I heard everyone within the year. I think that's what I heard.
Brian (41:03)
Yeah. No, I mean, all teasing aside, I think that the developers who are using it now within their IDEs and locked into some of these tools that are available to have AI help them with code, they're ahead of the game. And people who are afraid of that stuff and saying, no, I'm not going to keep that at arm's length, we've seen this movie a million times. Right.
Scott Dunn (41:03)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Lance Dacy (41:19)
Yeah. Yeah, played out over and over. It's like, you know what, Brian, two weeks ago, I don't know what the time is, I'm just being facetious right now, but a while ago, I would say that not true about programs because I say you will always need somebody programming the computer, but I've since now changed my mind thinking because I'm highly agile and I learned in that space and I drink my own champagne. That's not really true because I can go into chat, you know, I took, I'm a programmer myself, so I mean, no disdain about that, I remember in school, the first program I had to write was C++ about calculating the Easter Sunday date for a given year. And I had to write code to do that. And I tested that with my son over my shoulder, saying, I'm going to show you what ChatGPT can do. I said, write me a C++ program that calculates Easter Sunday for a given year. And I swear to you, in under a minute, all the code was there. Now, it didn't run. I had to take it and put it into an IDE and compile it and do all that stuff. But it worked. And it took me months to do that. So all I'm trying to say is it can help us be better. The creative side will always be there, but can you imagine not having to worry about code anymore? And you do more of prompting the computer instead of coding. That's really what I mean. I don't want to say their jobs are going away. I just think their jobs are going to be changed. They're going to be the next disruptor, just like I was talking about real estate agents and banking and all of us have been disrupted. But we gotta welcome it. Take it.
Brian (42:37)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (42:40)
Yes. Brian (42:49) Yep. Yeah, right. Welcome to the party, pal. Yeah, no, I agree.
Lance Dacy (42:57)
Right!
Scott Dunn (42:59)
I feel like saying at this point, we should let all the listeners know that actually this podcast is AI generated and these are not actual people here.
Lance Dacy (43:07)
I'm not really sure.
Brian (43:10)
Yeah, this was done with the approval of these three people, but written by written by AI agents. No, no, it's absolutely not. These are real human beings. Well, guys, this has been a really interesting discussion. And I know we've gone a little bit long. But hey, it's the hundredth episode. Come on, cut us some slack, right? We got three of us here. We obviously are going to kind of diverge a little bit. So
Lance Dacy (43:15)
Good.
Brian (43:35)
Thank you guys so much for coming on and helping us to celebrate this 100th episode. I really appreciate it. So just want, you know, Scott, thank you.
Scott Dunn (43:45)
Thank you.
Brian (43:46)
And Lance, thank you as well.
Lance Dacy (43:48)
I'm about to say Lance, no thanks. Thank you, Greg and Brian. I always love being on here and Scott, great to see you. It's been too long.
Scott Dunn (43:49)
Yeah. Hahaha. Good job.
Brian (43:52)
Right.
Scott Dunn (43:56)
These two, yes, really enjoyed it.
Brian (43:57)
Awesome.

#99: AI & Agile Learning with Hunter Hillegas

Join Brian Milner and Hunter Hillegas as they unveil Goatbot, Mountain Goat Software's latest AI innovation designed to transform how we access and learn from Agile and Scrum resources. Tune in to hear Hunter delve into the intricate process of developing and testing this AI platform.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Hunter Hillegas, Mountain Goat Software’s CTO, dive deep into the capabilities of Goatbot, an AI-powered tool that makes accessibility of reliable Agile and Scrum knowledge easier.
Developed by Mountain Goat Software, Goatbot answers queries using the company’s extensive array of training materials, blog posts, and articles, ensuring that users receive precise and reliable information.
The discussion also covers the rapid advancements in AI technology, exploring its burgeoning role in coding and testing. Join Brian and Hunter as they explore how Goatbot was created, its impact on learning Agile methodologies, and the exciting future of AI in software development.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:05] - Brian welcomes our beloved Chief Executive Officer at Mountain Goat Software, and creator of Goatbot, our Agile & Scrum AI, Hunter Hillegas.
[4:06] - Hunter explains how he and the team were able to make an AI platform to answer Scrum and Agile questions accurately every time.
[7:07] - Hunter talks about the experience of working with and developing AI from a long-term programmer's perspective.
[10:35] - Hunter and Brian share that Goatbot is available, accessible, and free on the Mountain Goat Software website.
[12:25] - Hunter walks through the process of creating Goatbot and some of the challenges the team faced to bring it to life.
[15:42] - Brian invites you to come on over and test out Goatbot, run it through its paces, and tell us what you think. Goatbot is free to use and specifically programmed to answer all your Agile and Scrum questions. Ask away!
[17:23] - As a technologist, Hunter talks about the parts of AI that are exciting and interesting in the tech world.
[19:05] - Brian points out the pace that AI technology is improving, underscoring its impact on setting new standards of improvement industry-wide.
[22:36] - Hunter shares his approach to integrating AI tools in his coding and testing processes, highlighting when they're beneficial and when they're not.
[28:46] - Brian shares a big thank you to Hunter for joining him on the show.
[29:30] - Brian shares the array of complimentary tools available at Mountain Goat Software, including Relative Weighting, as well as those tailored for users in the Agile Mentors Community, such as Planning Poker.
[30:41] - If you want to ask a question or provide feedback on Goatbot, email hello@mountaingoatsoftware.com
[31:06] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
[31:39] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Hunter Hillegas
Goatbot
Mountain Goat Software’s Free Tools
Mountain Goat Software’s Relative Weighting Tool
Mountain Goat Software’s Planning Poker
Mountain Goat Software
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Hunter Hillegas is CTO at Mountain Goat Software. With over 20 years in software development and a knack for creating high-quality digital solutions, he thrives at a company that values excellence in education and customer satisfaction, living in Santa Barbara with his wife and their distinctive Pitsky, Enzo.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest, a coworker of mine, Mr. Hunter Hillegas is with us. Welcome in Hunter.
Hunter (00:17)
Hey Brian, thanks for having me.
Brian (00:19)
Absolutely. Hunter is our CTO. He is the guy who's all about technology. And anytime I have technology questions, this is who I go to. And he is very patient with me and helps me to understand things when I don't understand them. But we wanted to have Hunter on to talk about one thing in particular that we felt like maybe not everyone knows about yet. or maybe you've crossed paths with it, but really are kind of interested in the story behind it a little bit. That is Goatbot. If you don't know, actually, I shouldn't be answering this stuff. If you don't know what Goatbot is, Hunter, tell them what Goatbot is.
Hunter (00:54)
Yes. Sure, so as the listeners may know, Mountain Goat, Mike Cohn in particular, but also Brian and other contributors, we generate a lot of content, whether it's training material or blog posts, other articles. And for a long time, we've wanted to make that more accessible to people. There's just so much of it that that's always been a little bit of a challenge, even using search and other technologies. And like, A lot of other people, about I guess 18 months or so ago when ChatGPT launched, I became a lot more interested in large language models and got a better sense of what the state of the art was there. So Goatbot is our attempt to meld those two things together to try to solve that problem to make all of our content more accessible using some of that technology. So it is a tool that lets you ask questions about scrimmage topics and it will answer them based on all the stuff that we've written and trained on, etc.
Brian (02:06)
That's a great explanation. Yeah, that's what it is. That's the idea behind it. And I'm sure Hunter will back me up on this. I'll tell you, when we first started doing this, I was trying as much as I could to put it through the paces. And I think I may have even said this on other podcasts before, but my go -to question I used to ask any kind of LLM about Agile and Scrum, was to have it tell me the difference between a product owner and a product manager. And in fact, I would say specifically, what does Scrum say the difference is between these two things? And the answers I would typically get, they would just give me an answer. They would say, well, a product manager is this and a product owner is that.
Hunter (02:46)
Hmm.
Brian (03:00)
And I remember telling Hunter, this is wrong. It shouldn't say that, right? Because Scrum doesn't have a product manager. How are we able to handle those kind of one -off kind of exceptions in working with this?
Hunter (03:14)
Sure. So anybody that's used some of the more general tools like chat GPT is like I think the go -to example that probably most people are familiar with even though there are other chatbots out there. know that, you know, sometimes it will give you wrong answers. Sometimes it will give you sort of strange answers. It will do what they call hallucinate and make things up essentially, because it really wants to give you an answer, even if it doesn't know what the answer should be. And, you know, that was something that I was worried about when I started to prototype this. Like we are, we have a, I think, I hope. to say, a great reputation in terms of the stuff that we put out there. And the last thing that I wanted to do was to put that in danger in any way by having some kind of a tool that's spouting nonsense out there. So. That was important. And I didn't really know how well it was going to work when I started sort of prototyping this whole idea. And I had some doubts. But what I discovered was that if I gave the model very specific instructions about where it should be pulling. It's, uh, it's information from, i .e. please only use this information I'm giving you, um, that is, we know it's from our materials and not sort of maybe some random article that they found on the web somewhere. That's part of the larger trainings that be very specific. And if you don't know an answer, say, you don't know, you don't need to make anything up. Um, so those sorts of what they call system messages did a lot of tuning there. Um, and ended up with something that actually works. pretty well, I think. I mean, it exceeded my expectations once I started getting, once I got to the point where there was something where I felt like I should share it with the team, that it wasn't embarrassing. And I feel like, you know, the feedback internally was really good and the feedback that we've gotten from people that have been using it has been really good. So I'm happy with how it's going so far.
Brian (05:09)
Yeah, I've been really, really impressed. It's been just a really nice tool. It's done a good job. We initially had it sort of internal, like you said, and we put it through its paces. We had kind of widening circles of people that would test it out and try it and give us feedback. And Hunter kept tweaking and making adjustments to it. But I'll tell you, I don't know if I even told this to you, Hunter, but I was doing a... ACSM class a few weeks back. And one of the opening exercises we do in that class is to really kind of consider some of the other Agile frameworks that are out there, not just Scrum and see how they compare. And one of the ones I have on my list is one that doesn't get used very often. It's kind of one that died out, but it's called Crystal or Crystal Clear if you know that or you're familiar with that.
Hunter (06:00)
Mm -hmm.
Brian (06:07)
But I wanted to see what the Goatbot would say about it, so I asked it specifically, just give me an overview of what Crystal is. And I think I said specifically the Agile framework Crystal, just to make sure it wasn't anything strange. But the response that came back was, I don't have any information on that. I know about Scrum, and I can give you answers about that, but I just don't have any information on anything else. And I.
Hunter (06:21)
Right.
Brian (06:34)
Honestly, it really impressed me. Here's another thing that it could have made something up and said, oh, yeah, yeah, it's this. Or it could have pulled from some general database or something else out there. But it's tuned really well to only pull from our data. And I just think that's awesome.
Hunter (06:50)
One of the things that's been strange slash interesting for me as a long time programmer in all kinds of different technologies from the web to native applications to other things. is how different it is working with these LLMs and trying to get them to bend them to your will. There are instructions in the system message that in all capital letters say do not make anything up. And the fact that I'm having to program a computer, I'm doing scare quotes here, program a computer by telling it not to invent things is just so bizarre coming from a very two plus two equals four world of more traditional programming. But it's also been really exciting and interesting.
Brian (07:32)
Yeah. Yeah, it is kind of completely opposite from a programming perspective, right? Because we're so used to, oh, it's not going to do anything but exactly what you tell it to do. And it can't fill in gaps at all. And now the problem is it could fill in too many gaps or try to fill in too many gaps. Yeah.
Hunter (07:44)
Right. Right. Absolutely. And you can think even just beyond, you know, your example of a, of a, of a framework that's not in common use and probably not something that we've talked a lot about on the website and our own own materials. There's all kinds of other instructions that I had to put in. Cause I didn't want this thing sort of going far afield and, and, and, you know, coming up with a really wacky, potentially terrible answer, um, to some of these questions. And so, yeah, we're, you know, we, we do give it some very specific instructions on how it should behave.
Brian (08:21)
I tell people who come to the class that, you know, I can't a hundred percent guarantee. I can't a hundred percent say, yeah, it's always going to give you a hundred percent the right answer. But what I can tell you is I've, you know, we've all put it through its paces. We've all asked it things that we feel like, Hey, this is kind of tricky. I wonder what it would do with this. And, uh, you know, just my own personal perspective has been when I, when I ask it a question and it gives me an answer, it's, it's. damn close to what my answer would be. It's really close to what I would say on that matter.
Hunter (08:55)
Yeah, it's encouraging to hear that. And I've heard that from you and from Mike as well, and then also from customers that have been using it over the past, so whatever month and change or so it's been more publicly available that they are really happy with the output. And it's a great way for us to take advantage of all of this material that we've built up over all of these years that otherwise some of it probably would be. something from 10 years ago, still really relevant in a lot of cases, but maybe gathering justice. Cause it's not, you know, the top blog posts on the website or something. So some of this knowledge, it's a little bit more varied. We can resurface it with a tool like this.
Brian (09:33)
Now, this was something that we initially just had in the Agile mentors community, right?
Hunter (09:39)
That's how it started. And that was for a few reasons, mostly because, well, a couple of important reasons. One is that with these types of LLM things, there are costs associated with it in the sense that it does cost us per question effectively. And just we wanted to make sure that we understood what those costs were before that we just let it loose on the wider internet. So that was part of it. But also to get a sense of how people would react to it in those early weeks and months got a lot of feedback. feedback on the responses just to get a general sense of did people think that this was a good answer or not so good and use that to calibrate it because you know frankly if it underperformed where we wanted it to be that would be a good signal that we needed to do some more work on it or give it some more time to bake.
Brian (10:26)
Yeah. Yeah. And now we kind of have opened that up, and it's available to anyone. You can go to Mount Goat Software and look in our menus. And there in our tools, it's under Tools, right?
Hunter (10:41)
Yeah, so you can get to it from the Mountain Goat site. You can either go to it is in the navigation, I think right next to the podcast for those of you that are familiar with where to find that on the website. I think it's right next to it, at least for now. No matter what you can go to mountaingoatsoftware .com slash goat bot and that will take you to the right place. That's G -O -A -T -B -O -T. And it is free right now. So we've couched that with at least for a limited time. We are again, sort of experimenting with the model and where it's going to go. But you can sign up for an account today and use it for free and get put it through its paces. And we're pretty happy with what we've got so far. So please do do that. And hopefully it's useful and give us feedback if you find something that you think could be improved or or let us know if you worked out for you to like to hear those as well.
Brian (11:29)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, we kind of buried our lead here just to say that, yeah, it is free, right? We're not selling you on something. We don't have a package of things that we're not. Yes, we did originally have it in our Agile mentors community. But like Hunter said, there was a lot of reasons for that. We wanted to be safe with it. We wanted to have a smaller audience, see what kind of responses we got.
Hunter (11:38)
Right. Yes. Yeah.
Brian (11:58)
We'd hate to put something out there in the world and then have people say, you know what kind of crazy stuff this thing told me to do? So yeah, kind of a safer audience there to start with. But yeah, it's available to anyone for free. You can just go to our site and use it. And as Hunter said, yeah, please give us feedback. If there's anything that you want to just let us know that it was useful to you in any way, or maybe you used it for something unusual, we wouldn't have anticipated.
Hunter (12:04)
Right. Right. Hahaha.
Brian (12:27)
Yeah, let us know. We're trying to tweak it and make it as useful as we possibly can. What surprised you most in this work of putting this together? Did it go just as you expected or did it throw you for some loops along the way?
Hunter (12:42)
There were definitely some loops. I mean, I sort of alluded to the fact before that it's a little bit different of a mentality in terms of how you get it to do what you want. GoPod is actually a few technologies glued together. There's the content itself. So as you might imagine, we've got... all of this various content, whether it's transcripts from training courses and videos or blog posts that Mike has written or weekly tips, books, all kinds of stuff. So there's a ton of different content. It's all in these different places. So, you know, step one was creating a sort of pipeline that could take all of this content that's all in these different places and clean it up a little bit so that it didn't have, say, you know, editors notes in it and other things like that that don't make any sense. and then put that content into a vector database. So I'm sure that many listeners are familiar with more traditional relational databases. Vector databases are not new, but they have become a lot more popular with the rise of the LLM stuff. And basically a vector database will chunk up the various content and lets you query to figure out how content that is close to the query that you asked in a mathematical vector space. And so we use that when you... pose a query to go, but it will go and find relevant pieces of information related to your query that the LLM in this case we use GPT -4 as the model underneath our underneath go pot can take the content that was retrieved these sort of chunks of content that by themselves don't read very well, wouldn't be a very good answer. And it can use that to reformat it, to summarize, to put stuff together into a way that makes sense. Putting those pieces together was something that was new to me. I can't remember the last time I had used a vector database for anything. And the LLM bit was new for me as well. But despite the fact that it was new to me technologies, at least in those cases, the pieces of it coming together actually was simpler than I imagined for how well it worked even in its first incarnation. It kind of came together more quickly, the basic core of it came together more quickly than I thought that it would. There was then a lot of refining, especially around the prompting and the messaging stuff. But... These technologies, especially if you are a programmer, even if you don't have any background in machine learning or AI stuff, I think it's accessible and, in my opinion at least, fun to play with because it is kind of like a whole new world there. So I guess I'd say for those that are interested and maybe are worried that I don't know anything about these technologies, I would go check them out because I think you'll find that they're more accessible than you may think.
Brian (15:39)
Yeah, and they're getting better. I mean, the pace of their improvement is just so rapid. You know, you tried something, you know, two weeks ago, and then two weeks later, it's just a completely different experience because it's just incrementally, you know, nonstop getting better all the time. Gosh, I'm...
Hunter (15:45)
Yep. The models, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Brian, but yeah, I mean, I agree 100%. The models that we've been using have gotten faster and cheaper, I think two or three times in big step change moments since we started the project. I mean, that is a technology that's moving quickly.
Brian (16:13)
Yeah, yeah. No, I was just going to make a joke about the fact that I think we've quoted about two or three songs there, and I just did another one with getting better all the time. Yeah, so this is a fascinating topic, Gary, obviously, for a lot of people. And what I'm kind of curious here, because we're maybe about halfway through our time, and I'm just kind of curious if we shift gears a little bit. from talking about GoPot to talking about AI in general, because you've done a lot of work in this area, and you're obviously in technology, and you're an aficionado, a technologist. What have you seen most recently in this area? Where do you think this is headed? What kind of trends have you noticed recently?
Hunter (17:01)
Well, I mean, it's obviously an area of great interest for the development community. It also, it seems like in the last year, every product that we use as tools or whatever, they are talking about the AI features that they're adding. Um, and at least in my experience, you know, some of those are really interesting, you know, like we use zoom often for internal meetings and, you know, it has a feature now that can automatically summarize a meeting and you can ask it, you know, what were the follow -up items and stuff like that. That's great. There's also maybe a little bit of sort of round peg square hole with some of this. Like, I don't know if every tool in the world needs an AI feature, and there are definitely some where I seems a little bit useless. Um,
Brian (17:40)
Yeah.
Hunter (17:48)
I guess that's to be expected with something like this that's got so much interest. The things that I'm excited about, and it feels like it's still very much early days, but you can see the contours are what many people would refer to as agents. So basically, AI tools that are going to go out and do things on your behalf. So not just write me a blog post or summarize this email, but... You know, and the example that's often used in some of these demos is like book me a vacation. I personally, I want to pick the seat I'm sitting in. So I don't know if I'm going to do that, but, um, you know, when the, when the tools can get good enough to go out and do things for you. Right. So I don't know example of this podcast recording, uh, we, you sent me a link to the calendar tool. I found a time that was open, but in theory that could be completely automated away, right? My agent could talk to your agent and it could just find the time. And that would, we would just both be told like, Oh, you guys are recording.
Brian (18:21)
Yeah, me too.
Hunter (18:44)
You know, at X time, that sort of thing, right? And then going several steps beyond that. I think that's really interesting. People are starting to build those. The models need to get, I think, a good bit better before, you know, that really works well. But I can't wait to see where that goes in particular. I think that's gonna be a lot of fun.
Brian (19:05)
Yeah, I agree. I mean, like Zoom is a great example because we were even having conversations about this recently, just that there's a lot of criticism about how good and the quality of those summaries that take place after a meeting. But previously, when we encounter a technology tool like that, you'd see the product and you'd say, oh, it's either useful or it's not useful.
Hunter (19:18)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Brian (19:34)
And it's kind of a binary one or zero. If it wasn't useful, then it really was about how that company implemented that feature. And they weren't going to do a massive overhaul of how it was implemented. It kind of is what it is. So we're kind of conditioned, I think, to have this response. Or at least if you're of a certain age, you're kind of conditioned to have this response of, hey, if it didn't work, it probably is not going to work. I can move on and find something else. But.
Hunter (19:43)
Right. Right.
Brian (20:03)
The pace of how this gets better is such that you try the Zoom tool, you look at the response and think, oh, that wasn't very useful. But you do it again in two weeks later. And all of a sudden, it's everything that you wanted it to be in the first pass. Because people have been saying, hey, this doesn't work, and I wish it was this way, and then the tool can update and modify. And it's crazy to think about, we have to get our heads wrapped around the pace of improvement is now vastly different.
Hunter (20:13)
Mm -hmm. It's it is definitely that's a very good point and it is different and you know, I know that there are some folks that you know, you take exception at calling these things AIs because they're not actually smart, right? How do how they work? They're not. They're not intelligent. But they are pretty impressive and they do unlock a whole lot of interesting new categories of stuff. And maybe you could have done some of these tasks before in other ways procedurally, but these can make some of those problems a lot easier to solve because of how they work. Now, I mean, I don't think I'd want ChatGPT to do my taxes, but...
Brian (21:12)
Yeah.
Hunter (21:14)
But it does have a lot of really interesting use cases. And you are absolutely right that these models are improving so quickly. And it is kind of like that little brain in there. And they can upgrade it with the latest version. And all of a sudden, it's just a little bit smarter. And again, I know some people take Umbridge as smart and intelligent. But I think you know what I mean.
Brian (21:34)
Yeah, no, and the funny thing there about, I mean, your example about doing your taxes is, you know, I laughed about that and thought, oh yeah, I'm kind of with you. I wouldn't want to have an AI do my taxes, but that's our opinion. There's probably others that would say, no, I'm fine with it doing it. If it's been trained and it's, you know, been programmed to do it a certain way, then yeah, that's fine. And I, you know, I'm aware of services that will do that with legal documents now that will create entire contracts and... wills and all sorts of stuff from a legal perspective. And that kind of leap, maybe that's the line for me. I look at that and say, oh, I could see that. Because it's a kind of a limited knowledge base. But taxes are kind of the same thing. They're, yeah.
Hunter (22:18)
I think it's doable. Yeah. I, I, I'm still at the stage with something like that where I'm in the trust, but verify mode. Like I, you know, it's, I would want to check it over and make sure it was correct, but I can easily see, you know, a little bit further down the road where a defined problem set like that, you can pretty much guarantee that it's going to, you know, give you a valid answer.
Brian (22:24)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I do want to dip our toe just a little bit in this other area too, because I know there's probably people wondering about this. You're in technology. You're at the levels where you're doing coding work. And I'm sure that you have made use or tried to make use of some of the tools that are out there now that assist and help with coding. What's your opinion of the current state of that art?
Hunter (22:56)
Mm. Yeah, no, great question. And I do use those tools. I'll use ChatGPT sometimes to work through a problem, or GitHub Copilot is the other tool that I use often. It's integrated into some of my other tools. I have found it useful in a bunch of different ways. I can find it useful to either... Help me write code that I 100 % could have written myself, no problem, but it would have just taken a little bit longer because I would have to go look something up and then remember some function name that I had forgotten. So like a script to reformat a CSV file or something like that, right? Not complicated, not breaking any new ground, something that I'm gonna use once and throw away. It's really good at that sort of thing and just creating something for me that I, you know, again, could have done myself easily, but it'll save me 10 minutes and I'll take it. I've also used it to help me understand a little bit. Maybe there's code in a language that I don't use very often or a framework I don't use. It's kind of like, what is happening here exactly? And having it try to explain it to me and walk through certain things. And that's also been useful for me, kind of just like I would talk to a colleague that might know a different area of a system better than I do, have a little bit of a back and forth. And that's been useful. I do not. do and at least right now would not feel comfortable with is like, I guess the equivalent of like copy and pasting code from Stack Overflow, right? So just taking huge chunks of code where I have no idea how it works or what it does and saying, it seems to give me the right answer, so I'm just gonna use it. That I wouldn't feel comfortable with in any context, whether it was AI generated or something that I found on a website someplace. So. I kind of treat it like, and others have said this too, but maybe like a pair program situation or like a junior programmer that might not have all of the experience, but is definitely very competent and can help with things. And I do find it saves me time. So I'm glad that it's there.
Brian (25:10)
Yeah, you know, it's funny because when you said that I wouldn't copy and paste, you know, things over, I kind of feel that same way. I'm not doing code, but I just didn't, you know, anything I would write or anything I would, uh, you know, kind of come up with in that way. Um, my, my kind of opinion is it hasn't really helped me as much with brainstorming type activities. I don't find it to be as, as creative.
Hunter (25:38)
Mm -hmm.
Brian (25:38)
To give me different ideas. But I do really, really enjoy how I can take a rough draft of something and then put it in and say, help me tweak this or help me make this better. It seems like it does a really good job with something like that.
Hunter (25:42)
Right. Yep, I'd spend my general experience as well. And it's, you know, I, I will take any tool assistance I can find here and there. And I do think even if I, even if it's not perfect, it's still an improvement and I can get some, maybe it'll make a suggestion for something I wouldn't have thought of or looking at it a slightly different way, which I find useful. So I'm happy to have it.
Brian (26:19)
Have you utilized it in any ways to test any of the code that you work on?
Hunter (26:24)
Oh. Yeah, that's a great question. For many programmers, writing tests can be kind of drudgery. And actually, I do find that it can be pretty good at writing certain kinds of tests for you. And actually, it's interesting if it struggles to write a test for something, it may be a sign that what you're trying to test needs to be refactored because it may not be, if it's not understandable enough or it's too
Brian (26:50)
Ha.
Hunter (26:55)
Big of chunks or whatever, that can also be an interesting indicator that maybe you need to go back and tweak that as well. But yes, I mean, I don't always enjoy writing automated tests, but they are very important. And so it is nice to have any kind of labor saving in that department. It's another area where I welcome.
Brian (27:17)
Yeah, you threw out the term refactor as well. I'm kind of curious there. If it does a good job of reformatting a couple of paragraphs, how good a job does it do with refactoring code?
Hunter (27:28)
It depends, like a lot of these things, but I definitely have thrown stuff in and said, hey, rewrite this function, tell me how you would do it. And there have been times where it will say, oh, well, you could, this is maybe a little verbose, you could compact this down, you could write this like this. In some cases, I originally wrote it in a certain way on purpose, because sometimes it'll generate code that is correct, but kind of hard to read. And there's a tension there between. something that's that future you will be able to read and understand versus the most compact terse code possible, right? So I don't always take its suggestions, but it can be good. Also it's good at finding, you know, silly programmer bugs off by one errors and those sorts of things that are really common. that we, the kinds of mistakes that we all make. Um, and so, yeah, another area where I'm happy to, to get a helping hand and just save me from banging my head into the wall, trying to figure out why this thing should work. And it turns out I just put a stomach hole in the wrong place. You know, something like that.
Brian (28:25)
Yeah, I'm always kind of careful with how I phrase this, but I know there's a lot of panic and there's a lot of concern about these things being able to replace the human element. And so I always try to preface this by saying, right now, the way the thing is right now. And the kind of examples we both gave, I think, are good examples to show that right now, it can't really do that. It can't really just completely wholesale.
Hunter (28:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian (28:53)
Replace the human element in it. But I think that our examples are good examples of how it can be a beneficial tool to help create these things.
Hunter (29:05)
I definitely see it as a productivity enhancer. I don't think, at least none of the models that I've seen, none of the chat bots that I've seen, I have seen a couple of products that claim they're sort of an AI developer in a box. I have not seen any that are very good. I mean, I saw a chat GPT demo of a guy that drew a picture of an iPhone app on the piece of paper and it...
Brian (29:23)
Yeah.
Hunter (29:32)
Gave it the code for a working app, but OK, great, now I want to add another feature. And like, oh, well, you can't really, because it's a piece. So some of those demos are impressive for sure. But in terms of the kinds of things that working software developers are doing every day, I have not seen anything that could replace the people that I work with on my various teams.
Brian (29:40)
Ha ha ha. Yeah, I mean, who knows where it'll be a year from now or two years from now. But yeah, I think we can only kind of deal with the state of it today. And that's sort of the state of it today. Well, Hunter, I really appreciate you coming on. This has been a fascinating topic. Again, for those who want to check it out, the whole reason we wanted to have this is just to make sure people were aware of this Goatbot tool. And hey, if you want to give someone some thanks for it, this is your guy.
Hunter (29:57)
Right. Yep. Hahaha.
Brian (30:25)
You can, if you want to send something to hello at mountegoatsoftware .com, that's our general kind of email address for anything from Mountain Goat. So send something to hello at mountegoatsoftware .com and tell us what you think of it. Let us know what you think. And if you have suggestions, let us know, right?
Hunter (30:42)
We're very excited to hear your feedback. I appreciate the kind words, Brian. I will say GoPot would be nothing without all of the content that you guys write for. So I can't take all of that credit, but it is fun to kind of pull all these things together in a way that people seem to enjoy.
Brian (30:50)
Ha ha ha. Awesome. Well, thank you again for coming on.
Hunter. Hunter (30:59)
Thank you.

#98: Coaching the Coaches with Vinnie Gill

Join Brian and Agile coaching expert Vinnie Gills as they tackle the complexities of being an Agile coach and working with and among teams. Discover key strategies for overcoming conflicts and enhancing teamwork within the coaching community.
Overview
In this insightful episode, Brian and Vinnie Gill dive deep into the often overlooked challenges that arise in Agile coaching.
They discuss the common pain points and conflicts that can disrupt professional relationships and share effective strategies for creating a more cohesive and supportive coaching environment.
Listeners will gain valuable insights into recognizing and leveraging personal and collective strengths and weaknesses, ensuring that Agile coaches not only preach transformative practices but also embody them in their interactions. Tune in to learn how to foster strong, productive relationships within your Agile coaching community.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:10] - Brian welcomes business agility coach and speaker Vinnie Gill.
[8:07] - Vinnie unpacks the reasons behind the high number of reports about challenging Agilists, highlighting the traits that contribute to their tough demeanor.
[10:12] - Vinnie emphasizes the critical importance of 'starting with why' to forge stronger and more effective working relationships.
[13:58] - Vinnie talks about the importance of coaches applying their own methods to themselves, sharing a real-life example of this practice in action.
[17:14] - Brian invites listeners to deepen their coaching skills by joining him or Lance Dacy in an Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®.
[18:49] - Vinnie explains the counterproductive coaching anti-archetypes she has encountered, shedding light on common pitfalls to avoid in coaching roles.
[20:03] - Brian describes how Mountain Goat Software approaches empathy as a team of individuals.
[22:15] - Discover how Vinnie takes empathy further by recommending the addition of compassion to enhance team interactions and support.
[23:43] - Explore with Brian the critical role of deliberately designing a team's social contract to enhance collaboration and team dynamics.
[27:00] - Vinnie delves into how understanding and leveraging both our strengths and weaknesses can lead to greater personal and professional growth.
[27:31] - Vinnie underscores the critical need for mental health and self-care among agile coaches to safeguard against burnout and maintain peak performance.
[31:28] - Brian shares a big thank you to Vinnie for joining him on the show.
[32:00] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
[32:20] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Vinnie Gill
Vinnie’s Agile 2023 Speech
#54 Unlocking Agile’s Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy
#89: Transformational One-on-Ones with Avipaul Bhandari
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Vinnie Gill is an experienced agile coach with a diverse background that spans continents and industries—from mining and finance to education and the public sector. With over 20 years in project and business management roles and a commitment to transformative education and agile practices, she excels at leading organizational change and fostering growth at the enterprise level.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian (00:53.038)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the fabulous Vinnie Gill with us. Welcome in, Vinnie.
Vinnie (01:08.879)
Hi Brian, thank you for having me.
Brian (01:10.83)
Absolutely. I'm very excited to have you here. Vinnie is a business agility coach. She has really a lot of stuff that makes her unique and interesting. She's based out of Scotland, but has worked in Europe and Australia. She's kind of worked all over. She also has a background that comes from a little bit more of a project management background before she got involved with kind of the Scrum world. She's been in leadership. She's kind of done a lot of different things and she crossed our path because of last year's Agile conference. She had a really interesting talk there that we thought would be an interesting dynamic for us to talk about. So her topic was about working with Agile coaches and kind of what it's like to be around other Agile coaches and what kind of led you to that? that topic, Vinny, how did you get involved? What kind of sparked your interest in kind of the complicating factors of working with other agile coaches?
Vinnie (02:17.839)
So I guess, Brian, for me, why this topic, right? I guess I do have a lot of ideas. Like I am an ideas person, but I feel like this is the most authentic one that I can talk to. And I feel like the most connected topic that I'm able to speak. Funnily enough, when I do submit conference talks, I do submit more than one, but this one actually always keeps getting picked. So clearly I think... It is a hot topic. I've also built in a lot of humor as well in the talk because I think sometimes it's really good to take a look and laugh at yourself. But you're asking why this topic. So to answer your question, I feel that we also suffer the same symptoms from the people, the teams and leaders that we coach. So. while the topic may be working with other agile coaches, the drama, it is applicable to every single team.
Brian (03:23.054)
Yeah, it's kind of more just working with each other, right? Just anytime you work with other human beings, you kind of have some of these same issues. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Yeah, and you know, the conference talk thing, you know, it's such a crazy scatter shot kind of thing. You know, you're right. You know, we submit multiple topics. We submit multiple ideas of things that we're passionate about at the time. And you never know which one's going to get picked, if any. I always tell people that last year's Agile conference was the first one that I had gotten picked to speak at and I spoke with Mike and so I kind of had a cheat code, right? Because who's not going to pick a talk that has Mike Cohn in it? But it's kind of, you never know what people are going to find interesting or what they think is something that the... The attendees are going to find interesting in this day and age as well. Have you had some, I mean, I'm guessing that you've had some moments in working with other coaches or moments in working with teams that weren't, I guess as my British friends will say, we're less than ideal.
Vinnie (04:45.679)
Why Brian, that's very polite where you're putting it.
Brian (04:47.598)
I always get a kick out of that. There was a company I worked with that was in the UK and we had some problems that were going back and forth and that's the way they phrase things was, yeah, this situation is less than ideal. And that was their very polite way of saying, yeah, there's a problem.
Vinnie (05:09.871)
Right. Yes, I have. And obviously, I think we all have. Not I think. I know for sure we all have. But the thing is, we're always on the pedestal, right? Because we're this flag barrier of how we should be and how we should behave and how we should treat people. Because that's what we coach. Agile or agility isn't only about frameworks. Those are practices and to enable those, you need to have the behaviors, you need to have the mindset. And we coach these things. So the important thing, I guess, for us is to, how are we showing up for ourselves? How are we mirroring the behaviors that we are promoting?
Brian (06:01.806)
That's an excellent point. I mean, if we're trying to kind of teach this to others and say, hey, here's the agile manifesto and here's our values and principles and we should work as a team, but then we're working with other agile coaches and we're kind of working on our own and our own silos. And we're not really, we don't necessarily even get along with the other agile coaches that we have. that are around us, we're demonstrating what we really believe, right?
Vinnie (06:38.863)
Yeah, this is correct, right? It always starts with us. And I've always said this time and time again, you can't change other people. The only thing you can do is change yourself. So if you're pointing at one finger, there's four fingers pointing back at yourself, right? And it's very common with the people that I've worked with. If you, for example, work with a leader or a true story that you've asked, I've recently... and set up a Scrum Master Community of Practice. And I just said, you know, we're starting off this new Community of Practice. It's how we're going to be. Let's just focus on ourselves. Let's mirror the behaviors and the change that we want to be because this is all that we can control. And that's me learning the hard way through, you know, my years of... or your experience. And immediately after that it went, but what about the POs? The POs really need it. And I was like, did I not just say this? And you work with another leader and they go like, oh, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. But this person doesn't do this. And this is like, no, no, no, no, no. Just focus on yourself. Be clear on what you want to be. And if you want that behavior from somebody else, demonstrate that behavior.
Brian (08:01.678)
Such good advice, yeah, absolutely. Well, let's talk about some of the, because I know in your talk, you talked about some of the pain points that come along with just working with other Agile coaches. Are there any kind of unique pain points that you would think are specific to working with Agile coaches, or are these kind of all, would they kind of apply to any close working relationship?
Vinnie (08:25.743)
So I'm so glad you asked this question, Brian, because this talk, I've retired it for this year. I'm not submitting it to any conferences this year because it gets picked over my other talks. And I would like to do some other talks. I mean, I'm at version six or version seven of this talk. And for the agile conference that you watched, I did the extended version. Sometimes I have the Speedy Gonzales version.
Brian (08:54.798) Hahaha.
Vinnie (08:55.023)
But it is a talk that grows. No two talks are the same. And what I actually do is I collect metrics. So every time I do the talk, I'm collecting data. I'm collecting evidence. The first question I usually ask is, have you worked with a challenging Agilist? And the aggregate that I got from the last six talks, and I'm actually looking at it, is It's about 94%. 94 % says, yes, they have worked with a challenging Agilist, right? So an Agile team, Agile person, an Agile leader, a product person, right? And the small percentage that said that, you know, no, they haven't had any problems. They were mostly lone ranges. or they actually held the contract to deliver, which means they hired other people. So they had essay. So those are pretty high statistics. The other question that I ask is, in one word, describe what you find most difficult about working with them. And the word cloud that keeps coming up again and again, because the word cloud just zoots.
Brian (10:03.374)
Yeah.
Vinnie (10:20.143)
does its magic and has this, you know, the big word is actually ego, Brian. It's ego followed by don't want to change, controlling and fake.
Brian (10:38.638)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who would have thought that Agilist have an ego, huh? Um, but yeah, fake, fake. That's that hurts. Right. I mean that, I mean, we're, we're trying to be transparent about things and, uh, yeah, I could completely see that, that, you know, that would be a huge pain point if we feel like the, the others who are on our side, on our team are, are being fake about things and not being transparent about stuff. That's, that's terrible.
Vinnie (11:07.183)
Yeah, and I suppose the kicker here is this is not what other people are saying about us. This is what we are saying about each other.
Brian (11:16.494)
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. OK. So yeah, there's some pain points. There's definitely some things there that we could do better that are less than ideal. And if that's given, if we have those kind of problems inherent in our relationships and our working relationships without their Agilist, I know you also talk about some kind of tools and techniques to make our coaching group a little bit more cohesive. So what have you found there? How have you found ways to kind of bring that coaching unit together?
Vinnie (11:59.823)
So what I did is I basically started with the why. Why is it important that we need to work with each other? And quite aptly, I pointed out that it's a hard job. You're going in there and you're trying to introduce a different way of working. And that's hard. You're taking those decisions. You're being passionate about it. You're having those challenging conversations. So ultimately, you know, it is complex. It can be highly political. I mean, it always is. And so it's really important to have somebody who has our backs. And that's the why, right? And then it goes on, you're up. And then the next one is to understand the system that you're in. What does your system of coaches look like? They're, you know, permanent. um, you know, different types of employment, so permanent contract consultant, and then you've got the different coach levels like team program enterprise, and then you've got the different management types, you know, that you're trying to integrate. So you've in some companies and I've been in companies like this where you have a mix of all kinds. And also you have, you know, some companies where you might just have a couple of agile coaches. So understanding the system and. who your colleagues are are really important. I predominantly am a contractor and sometimes I'm a consultant, but I always look to leverage the relationships that I already have on site. So if they're a product person, if they're a Scrum Master, they're all one of us. We're all each other, you know, even product people. And I know this is split between product people and not agile people and Kanban people are not. this and that, but hey, we're all after the same goal here, you know? So I don't buy this whole thing by creating factions. I'm all about how we can work together. So once you find out who's in the system, try and see how you can leverage each other and use what we all have to our advantage. You know, for example, some conversations is better coming from a permanent person. Some conversations is better coming.
Brian (13:58.126)
Yeah.
Vinnie (14:22.287)
from a person that's outside. So build those relationships, make friends.
Brian (14:28.59)
Yeah, yeah, I would think there's sort of an inherent flaw or not. I don't know if I would say flaw, but there's there's inherent crack that could could could present itself in this relationship because you know we all have our preferences for how things should go and while we all follow the same kind of values and principles, the practices are very, very different. And I might come in and have a certain particular stance I always take on estimation, for example, and say, this is the way I think people should estimate, and I've found success with this. And then if I have another consultant or Agile coach that's there who feels very strongly the other way, well, now we're presenting two different conflicting opinions. And I can see how that would be really confusing for the client, right? For the person we're trying to help.
Vinnie (15:30.927)
Absolutely correct, Brian. So my question to you is if you were a coach and two leaders had two different opinions, what would your advice be to them?
Brian (15:42.51)
Yeah, I mean, we'd have to discuss it. We'd have to analyze them. We'd have to sit down and say, you know, what are the pros and cons and, you know, try to reach some kind of consensus. Yeah.
Vinnie (15:50.895)
Exactly. So a lot of the things that I'm saying in my talk is not exactly rocket science. It's just that sometimes we do not take our own advice. We don't take our advice, but we also forget about ourselves as well. We tell our teams to have fun. I tell them to go play bowling. You know, we tell leadership to go have a nice away day. By the way, I believe we're all leaders just for the record.
Brian (16:01.742)
Yeah.
Brian (16:19.95)
Yeah.
Vinnie (16:21.135)
Um, but we don't have time to have fun ourselves, right? As almost like sometimes we're always very spread thin, like Vegemite, which is this Australian thing. Um, and sometimes we eat the burnt toast. You know, we save the, the burnt stuff for ourselves. We, we forget ourselves. We coach people to have empathy, but we appear to not have empathy for each other. Right. Um.
Brian (16:33.134)
Yeah.
Vinnie (16:51.183)
So these are some of the tips and tricks we ask people to have a social contract and review them. We don't do it ourselves.
Brian (17:03.438)
Let's talk about that a little bit. So when you say that you recommend people have a social contract, what kinds of things would you just say are run in the mill, typical kind of things that you would see in a social contract between Agile coaches?
Vinnie (17:19.535)
It would be more or less the same thing that you would see in a team, right? Be aligned, you know, how do you want to talk to the client or how do we want to talk to the people that we work with? Bullying, intimidating, be transparent, respect each other's skills, look out for each other's backs, right? And maybe live the behaviors that we coach. So these are some things that we could have in our ways of working. I recently delivered a two -day practitioner course, not only delivered, my colleague Suzanne and I, who is a big fan of yours, Brian. Hey, Suzanne.
Brian (18:07.886)
Well then big shout out to her and thank you so much for listening.
Vinnie (18:15.023)
And so, you know, we, we put together this two day product practitioner course, which we're so excited about because it's not only learning the theory, you actually get to put it into practice a wee bit by wee bit. So that's what's going on. And we'd worked very hard for two months to put this whole course together. And the day before we delivered it, Suzanne was like, let's have a social contract on how we're going to. run on these two days. And so we, we did it, you know, we had each other. It's like, okay, so during the break, if there's, you know, we're running long or we're running short, this is what we're going to do. We're going to stay back. We're going to do this. Okay. Can we have lunch at different times? Um, and you know, things like, um, have fun, you know, back each other up. If there's a difficult question.
Brian (19:12.174)
Yeah, that's so good. And it's, you know, there's some stuff I've been working on around conflict just in general in teams. And I think that applies here as well. Just kind of the idea of, you know, if we can state prior to us becoming bogged down in something that's dangerous, right? We can state from the outset, hey, when this kind of thing might occur, here's how we should handle it, right? Here's how we think we want to handle these kinds of things. But establishing that in advance, I think goes a long way so that when it happens, you're not caught off guard. You're not sort of sitting around going, well, gosh, now we're in the thick of it. How do we get out of this? No, we've talked about it. We have a plan. Here's how we do it.
Vinnie (19:57.903)
Exactly. Yes. So yeah. And some of the, some of the other tips and tricks that I cover, just in case you're, you're, you're, you're interested. I do talk about, um, you know, I'm big on us having empathy with each other. I interviewed some coaches and I have a list of, um, coach anti archetypes, you know? Um, and some of them are.
Brian (20:09.294)
Yeah.
Vinnie (20:23.855)
quite funny after after serving. It's like you may have the overwhelmed coach, the coach who doesn't listen, the framework coach, the know it all coach, the coach that takes the credit. And it's my favorite, the Oreo coach, which is now you see me now you don't.
Brian (20:40.462)
Love that.
Vinnie (20:42.287)
Right. But with this coach, anti archetypes, I. You remember I talked about the word cloud, right? And we might have seen that in ourselves. And when I usually show this list of coach archetypes, I bet they're basically saying, oh, you know, that's Jim and that's Sally and that's Alex and that's Brian. But the thing is we have been this person at some situation, right? We've probably been some of it or all of it.
Brian (20:52.75)
Yeah.
Vinnie (21:17.519)
and depending on the situation, because we're human as well, but the important thing is we catch ourselves and we notice what's happening. And sometimes we behave in different ways because there are other factors that are causing us to behave in this way.
Brian (21:35.566)
Yeah. Yeah, that's such a great point. We just had, you know, for, you know, Mountain Goat Software, we're a small team. We have a small kind of group of people. And once a year we get together to have our, our kind of, you know, in -person discussions and meetings. And one of the things we talked about there was just the fact that, you know, we, like any small team of people, right? Like any small group of people were human beings. And people have bad days from time to time. And when you have a bad day, you certainly kind of expect people to understand, hey, it's not the real me, that's the bad day me. Like there's just, yes, I don't always behave as I would hope to, but that's because I have bad days from time to time. And... I'm trying to reduce, you know, those and try to reduce the way I act, uh, you know, that might be disruptive to somebody else, but that empathy, like you said, I love that word as well. Having empathy for someone else to say, Hey, that's, they're not a bad person. They're just having a bad day. Um, you know, we talked about, we've talked about on this podcast before kind of, uh, the acting thing about intent versus action, you know, like, uh, you, we observe people's actions. You know, that person did this or said this to me. Uh, and we ascribe intent to that. You know, you see that someone does something and then you, you kind of think, well, that must've been because they don't like me or that must be because, uh, you know, they have it in for me. That's intent. And what we have to kind of step back from sometimes I think is, is, um, jumping to a conclusion of what the intent is. You know, like we see it, we observe the action, but do we give people the benefit of the doubt on their intent to say, I'm sure it's not because they have it in for me. I'm sure it's not because they just don't like me. Maybe it's because they're having a bad day. Maybe it's because somebody else just yelled at them. Maybe it's because, you know, a million things, right? But if you jumped to that negative intent to say, oh, no, no, no, it just must be that they hate me. You know?
Brian (24:02.51)
then you're not really giving them the same empathy that you want others to give you when you have a bad day.
Vinnie (24:10.575)
Exactly. And you're not even giving the same empathy that you coach people and teams that you work to have for each other. Right, Brian? So it's not one. Yeah. So onto that, it's like there is empathy, but there is one actually higher than empathy, which is compassion.
Brian (24:18.51)
Yeah, absolutely.
Brian (24:27.534)
Hmm.
Vinnie (24:29.103)
So that's high on the effort and high on the engagement. It's really hard. It's not about just being nice to somebody for a few hours, you know. It's actually following up with that person and seeing how they're doing and how they are caring about them genuinely. I always find this when somebody passes away, it's always like during that couple of weeks. So I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. but people feel this years to come, every special holiday, every best season. So it's a lot more than a few hours. But Brian, I'm curious. You mentioned about Mountain Goat Team. You have a wee team. Sorry, I'm saying wee because wee means a little bit for it.
Brian (25:17.39)
No, you're in Scotland. You are allowed to use that term. I am not, but you are.
Vinnie (25:25.071)
Of course you are, why are you not allowed? You're absolutely allowed. Do you have a social contract or somehow your teams, how you want to be and how you work together?
Brian (25:38.094)
You know, that was one of the topics in our last meeting was kind of talking about the fact that we needed to be more deliberate about what that was. So my answer is that no, we don't have it yet, but that is an action item that we took out of our meeting was to deliberately capture that and make sure we're all aware of what that is. So, you know, it's one of those things where, like you said, sometimes you, you, It's definitely something that I would say to another company. If I come in, you should have working agreements, team agreements. But when you get to your own little team, you think, oh, we all kind of know what that is. No, you kind of need to be deliberate about it. I agree. Yeah.
Vinnie (26:25.647)
And it needs to be reviewed. So that's something that we all, we all, we all don't do, I guess. Some of the other stuff I talked about is like capability metrics, right? And I always, I always say this. I'd, I'd rather be somebody's shot of whiskey than everybody's cup of tea.
Brian (26:45.71)
I love that.
Vinnie (26:49.071)
I am not the right coach for some people or some teams. And I am absolutely the right coach for some people in some teams. So the important thing is, you know, how we work together. If I bring the listeners back to when we talk about the coaches in the system, starting with where we are at the moment, who was that best person to go to this area or work with that person? We all have our different skills. We all have our skills, skillsets and strengths, um, and things that we're not good at. And while we're on the subject, I know everyone says, if you have a weakness, you need to do better. Nah, that's not me. You know, for me, if I'm good at something, I can be better at something. Um, and if I'm not great at something, that's fine. You know, I'm not going to, um, spend my time or feels, you know, worry about it, you know, that I'm not, not so good at it. The important thing is I am aware that I'm not very great at this and there are other people more suited to this. So that's how I've been, um, I've basically been in the last few years. It's like, yeah, cool. Don't worry about it, right?
Brian (28:08.91)
Yeah. No, I love that. I think that's great. And I completely agree. It's, it's, uh, you know, of course we're, we're, we're agile people. We, we are trying to continually improve. Uh, you know, that we, we tell that to our teams and I, uh, I think that's something we take to heart and just how we live our lives. But you're, you're absolutely right. I completely agree that, you know, there are things I am stronger in. And there are things I'm weaker in and there's no real reason for me to have to really strain to try to do something I'm weak in when there's a better option. If I know there's somebody else who's really good at that. Well, I'll give you a great example. There's a, you know, one of our, our, uh, our trainers here that we work with, we have mentor of mine that I've worked with that have on the podcast regularly. Uh, Lance Dacey, uh, Lance is really. great at he actually went back to school and got a master's in data science and he knows that much better than I do. I know a little, you know, like I know I kind of know generals. I'm not I don't know a lot of specifics, but if we had someone come to us and say no, we really need someone who's who's really big in data science. Sure, there's no reason why I should have to strain to press in and try to cover up for something that I'm not as strong in as Lance is. So I agree with you. Kind of the old adage, know thyself. Know what you're strong in, know what you're weak in, and don't be ashamed. It's just who you are.
Vinnie (29:59.727)
Yeah, exactly. Right. Cause you're never going to be a data science expert and I'm not going to be a robotics expert. Right. So sometimes when I do have these conversations with people like, Oh, you know, you're weak in this place. And I was like, well, I knew enough, but you know, so be it. And they're like, Oh, that's really weird attitude. And I was like, yeah, like I'm good at these things. It can be better at these things. I'm not so great at these things, you know, let the other person.
Brian (30:08.398)
Right.
Vinnie (30:26.511)
do that because that's their passion. That's what they're interested in.
Brian (30:30.606)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been great. I thank you so much for taking the time here. I know with time differences and stuff, you're in your evening and it's already weekend where you are. So thank you so much for taking your time and sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us here on the podcast.
Vinnie (30:53.263)
Thanks, Brian.
Brian (30:55.886)
Absolutely.

#97: Exploring Liquid Agility with Arlen Bankston

Join Brian as he and Arlen Bankston unveil the secrets of Liquid Agility in this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Dive into how this innovative framework revolutionizes product management and fills the gaps in traditional Agile methodologies
Overview
In this episode Brian and Arlen Bankston delve into the intricacies of Liquid Agility, a comprehensive framework designed to enhance agile practices with its unique focus on prioritization, preparation, and outcome evaluation.
Arlen walks us through the JUICE framework, which categorizes work into distinct streams—innovation, iteration, and operation—and discusses strategies for refining projects and maximizing the impact of released features.
Whether you're a product owner, Scrum practitioner, or Agile enthusiast, this episode offers valuable insights into making agile methodologies more effective and adaptable to your needs. Tune in to transform your approach to product management and Agile practices with cutting-edge insights from Liquid Agility.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:15] - Brian welcomes Scrum veteran, Certified Scrum Trainer®, partner at Grow-Lean LLC, author of HR and the Agile Organization, and creator of Liquid Agility.
[2:53] - Explore the concept of Liquid Agility with Arlen as he reveals how it enriches traditional Agile practices, adding layers of depth and adaptability to methodologies
[4:59] - Arlen discusses how Liquid Agility transforms prioritization, making it simpler to categorize tasks and put user needs first for more effective project management.
[7:45] - Brian sheds light on the elegant simplicity and balance that Liquid Agility brings to the table, streamlining processes without sacrificing depth.
[10:05] - Arlen delves into the nuances of his prioritization framework, giving a detailed walkthrough of the JUICE framework and its strategic benefits.
[14:30] - Deepen your understanding and work hands-on to practice and understand the craft of being a great product owner by taking a Certified Scrum Product Owner® (CSPO) or Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® with Mountain Goat Software. Plus, you’ll be automatically enrolled in Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community, including twelve months of ongoing coaching and support. Find a complete list of our upcoming classes on the Mountain Goat Software's Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule.
[24:55] - Arlen outlines effective strategies for teams to evaluate and select the tools that best align with their specific needs and goals.
[27:59] - Arlen explains the essentials of readiness within the dynamic Liquid Agility framework, highlighting what true preparedness looks like in an Agile context.
[31:30] - Brian shares a big thank you to Arlen for joining him on the show.
[33:39] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here.
[34:12] - If you liked the episode, share with any product owner you think might benefit from the discussion today, too!
[34:30] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Send us an email.
[34:46] - Catch Brian live and in person, and hear him speak at the upcoming 2024 Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans and the Agile 2024 Conference in Dallas.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Arlen Bankston
Grow-Lean, LLC
HR and the Agile Organization by Arlen Bankston
Liquid Agility
#3: What Makes a Great Product Owner? With Lance Dacy
#14: What does it mean to be Product-Centric? With Scott Dunn
#50: Exploring the Roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner with Lance Dacy
Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Mountain Goat Software
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
2024 Global Scrum Gathering
Agile2024
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Arlen Bankston is one of the very first Certified Scrum Trainers®, a Scrum veteran, partner at Grow-Lean LLC, author of HR and the Agile Organization, and creator of Liquid Agility. Known for his thought leadership and dynamic, entertaining, and practical training style, Arlen has trained and mentored thousands of ScrumMasters, Product Owners, team members and executives.

#96: Mastering Asynchronous Work with Sumeet Moghe

Join Brian and Sumeet Moghe as they discuss transforming the focus and efficiency of Agile teams in our always-on world. Discover how to master asynchronous work to enhance decision-making and improve team dynamics.
Overview
On this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes Sumeet Moghe, author of the Async First Playbook, in this enlightening episode as he explores the pivotal role of asynchronous work within Agile frameworks.
Sumeet shares his insights on fostering deep focus, enhancing decision-making, and pragmatically adapting Agile practices to meet unique team needs. Delve into the challenges and strategies for securing team buy-in, balancing synchronous with asynchronous tasks, and building cohesion in distributed teams.
This episode is packed with actionable advice on creating a supportive, safe, and productive environment through intentional communication and strategic face-to-face interactions. Tune in to reshape your team's approach to collaboration and productivity in the asynchronous era.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:15] - Brian welcomes Sumeet Moghe, Transformation Specialist and Product Manager at Thoughtworks and author of The Asynch-First Playbook.
[2:18] - Dive into Sumeet's captivating journey to mastering asynchronous work, exploring how his deep-seated passion sparked innovative approaches in his professional life.
[5:11] - Brian expertly connects Agile principles to the unique challenges of asynchronous work, offering insightful solutions for today’s distributed work environments.
[7:32] - Sumeet unveils critical insights from his extensive experience in asynchronous work, offering valuable lessons for mastering remote collaboration.
[10:57] - Highlighting the challenges that conventional Agile practitioners encounter in asynchronous environments, Brian turns to Sumeet for practical solutions to address these issues constructively.
[16:26] - Are you ready to take your Asynchronous work to the next level? Consider taking Mountain Goat Software’s Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® (ACSM) class to dive deeper into facilitating and thriving with an asynchronous team. To learn more, check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule.
[19:28] - Sumeet outlines effective strategies for conducting Sprint Planning sessions with asynchronous teams, ensuring smooth collaboration and productivity across different time zones.
[24:32] - Sumeet addresses team building on asynchronous teams, highlighting and walking through the asynchronous application of the work of Amy Edmonson and Google’s Project Aristotle, developing psychological safety.
[32:52] - To foster deeper trust and reduce conflicts, Sumeet advises using the cost savings from asynchronous work to facilitate in-person team interactions.
[35:20] - Brian shares a big thank you to Sumeet for joining him on the show and bringing his unique experience to the conversation.
[36:10] - If you enjoyed this topic, we invite you to share the episode with a friend or on social media. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on your podcast platform of choice.
[37:19] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Send us an email.
[36:10] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Sumeet Moghe
The Asynch-First Playbook by Sumeet Moghe
Thoughtworks
Sumeet's Photography
The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® (ACSM)
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Mountain Goat Software
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Sumeet Gayathri Moghe is a product manager, and design nerd at Thoughtworks, and author of The Asynch-First Playbook. Sumeet has worked on building software products and improving teams’ engineering effectiveness over diverse environments, building an approach that is versatile and can be effectively adapted across various industries to meet diverse needs. When he’s not at work building software, you’ll find him discovering the world through a camera’s eyepiece, photographing wildlife and wilderness.

#95: Navigating Change with Precision with Steve Martin

Join Brian as he explores the Change Initiative Canvas with Dr. Steve Martin, a groundbreaking tool designed to streamline and succeed in organizational change efforts. Learn how to tackle change with clarity and strategic foresight.
Overview
In this insightful episode, Brian Milner and Dr. Steve Martin dive deep into the mechanics of the Change Initiative Canvas, a strategic framework developed to guide organizations through successful transformations.
They discuss critical aspects such as setting clear objectives, measuring impact, handling objections, and the importance of cultural alignment within the organization. Whether you're initiating small adjustments or major shifts, this discussion provides the essential tools and tactics to navigate change effectively and achieve meaningful, sustainable results.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:10] - Brian welcomes Dr. Steve Martin, PhD, Certified Scrum Trainer®, CEO of Agility Guides, and professor at Franklin University and creator of the Change Initiative Canvas.
[2:38] - Steve unveils the intriguing origins of the Change Initiative Canvas, sharing the inspiration and journey behind its creation.
[4:38] - Steve breaks down the concept of failure, offering insightful strategies on how to interpret and learn from setbacks.
[7:00] - Steve delves into the essentials of recognizing when change is necessary by questioning the underlying reasons and observing the problem's impact.
[11:29] - Brian emphasizes how understanding the customer's immediate need for change is vital for navigating towards the right solutions.
[14:34] - Steve explains the delicate balance between thoroughly understanding a problem and avoiding the trap of analysis paralysis.
[15:24] - Explore your Agile potential with the custom Elements of Agile assessment, crafted by Mike and Brian to help you gauge your team’s current agility and identify opportunities for growth.
[17:17] - Steve emphasizes the significance of clearly outlining what success entails to align efforts and expectations across the board.
[20:29] - Explore effective strategies for navigating resistance and overcoming constraints during a change initiative, ensuring smoother transitions and successful outcomes.
[26:48] - Steve highlights the critical need to understand an organization's culture and outlines methods for accurately assessing it to ensure alignment with strategic initiatives.
[30:46] - Steve encourages listeners to connect with him on LinkedIn and explore the practical tools and resources available on the Agility Guides Resources page, designed to enhance real-world Agile practices.
[31:56] - Brian expresses his heartfelt gratitude to Steve for sharing his insights on the show, enriching the conversation with his expertise.
[32:34] - Continue the conversation and deepen your Agile knowledge by joining the Agile Mentors Community. Enjoy a complimentary year-long membership by enrolling in any Mountain Goat Software, such as the Certified ScrumMaster (CSM) or Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO).
[33:24] - Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast and spread the word to anyone who might appreciate our discussions. Have feedback or an idea for a future episode? We'd love to hear from you—drop us an email!
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Steve Martin
Agility Guides
Change Initiative Canvas
Agility Guides Resources
Elements of Agile
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Dr. Steve Martin is driven by a passion to help leaders excel, by leveraging extensive experience in orchestrating large-scale transformations and academic insights to empower leaders at all levels to navigate today’s volatile business landscape. From failed beginnings to leading successful agile transformations and teaching leadership principles, he guides executives and managers to lead with authenticity, humility, and a coaching mindset, ensuring both organizational success and personal fulfillment.

#94: Connecting Teams and Leadership with Anthony Coppedge

Join Brian and Anthony Coppedge as they unlock the secrets to bridging the team-leadership divide. Learn how to navigate through fear, short-term thinking, and the transformative power of Agile within top-tier organizations like IBM.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down for a groundbreaking conversation with Anthony Coppedge, of IBM and creator of the Retrospective Radar.
They delve deep into the disconnects plaguing organizations between their teams and leadership. From overcoming fear and fostering long-term value to harnessing the strength of middle management and the critical role of data-driven decision-making, this episode offers a treasure trove of insights for those looking to drive agility and foster a culture of transparency and success in their organizations.
Join us to explore how translating team realities into leadership vision can catalyze meaningful change and position companies for enduring success.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:18] - Brian welcomes Anthony Coppedge, IBM's business agility expert.
[2:40] - Unveiling the core issue, Anthony explores how fear fuels the disconnect between teams and their leaders, offering insights into bridging this crucial gap.
[4:04] - Anthony highlights the power for the team in delivering real value for the benefit of others.
[5:14] - Hear Anthony unpack the significance of scalability in systems and processes, highlighting its role in enabling organizations to adapt and thrive, and what the conversations with the teams can look like to achieve scalability.
[6:00] - Anthony lays out vivid examples of the existing gap between teams and leadership, offering insightful strategies needed to effectively bridge this divide.
[7:50] - Highlighting the pivotal role of middle management, Anthony suggests leveraging these key players as connectors between teams and top leadership.
[8:50] - Anthony shows how to effectively convey the ground-level realities of teams to leadership, ensuring their efforts are directly linked to the organization's overarching direction.
[10:30] - Brian emphasizes the critical need to grasp what drives leaders, advocating for the translation of team insights into a language that resonates with leadership priorities.
[13:59] - Anthony explores how adopting a client-centric approach fosters transparency in communication, ensuring clarity and alignment across all levels.
[16:31] - Bridge the gap between your leadership and teams by helping the leaders to expand their Agile language and experience with Mountain Goat Software’s Agile For Leaders Course.
[18:34] - Anthony proposes actionable strategies and the importance of teams spearheading cultural shifts within their organizations, steering them towards embracing Agile principles.
[21:43] - Highlighting the strategic use of data, Anthony discusses how it can illuminate results and motivate shifts towards better practices.
[29:14] - Brian unveils Anthony's innovative approach to reflection and growth with 'The Retrospective Radar.'
[36:11] - Brian shares a big thank you to Anthony for joining him on the show and invites listeners to connect with him on LinkedIn.
[37:27] - We invite you to share the podcast with friends and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
[38:06] - If you’d like to continue this discussion on the episode specific discussion forums on the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software.
[38:48] - Brian invites listeners to join him live and in person at the 2024 Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans and the Agile2024 conference in Dallas.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Anthony Coppedge
Retrospective Radar
Retrospective Radar Template
Creative Commons usage rights for the Retrospective Radar
Agile For Leaders
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
2024 Global Scrum Gathering
Agile2024
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Anthony Coppedge is the Principal Agile Digital Sales Global Transformation Lead at IBM and creator of the Retrospective Radar. Anthony has reshaped enterprises from startups to Fortune 500 giants like IBM, pioneering enterprise Agile Sales and driving customer-centric outcomes worldwide.

#93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn

Explore the skills revolution with Brian and Evan Leybourn of the Business Agility Institute as they dive into a landmark study on the skills shaping today's workforce. Learn why adaptability, human skills, and agile acumen are the keys to success.
Overview
In an enlightening episode, Brian sits down with Evan Leybourn, co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, to delve into recent research findings on the essential skills for the modern workforce.
They discuss the paramount importance of human skills over technical abilities in hiring, the emergence of 'pi-shaped' professionals who excel in multiple domains, and the critical role of agile acumen across various job roles. Additionally, they address the pressing need for educational systems to pivot from traditional role-based learning to a more versatile skill-based approach.
This episode is a treasure trove for anyone looking to navigate the workforce's future, offering deep insights into adapting and thriving in an ever-evolving professional landscape.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:17] - Join Brian in a captivating session with Evan Leybourn, the innovative author and co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, as they explore groundbreaking insights into agility and workforce evolution.
[2:32] - Discover the unexpected findings from Evan's recent study, ‘Skills in the New World of Work,’ on the workforce's most sought-after skills and their pivotal role in modern hiring practices.
[4:50] - Brian sheds light on the rising value of soft, or human, skills in the workforce, suggesting a pivotal expansion of Scrum Master skills to embrace these vital attributes.
[8:00] - Evan reveals their unexpected discovery: organizations are increasingly seeking 'pi-shaped' skills that blend diverse areas of expertise.
[12:45] - Perfect your human skills and refresh your Agile approach with Mountain Goat Software’s Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® courses. For further details, visit the Mountain Goat Software training schedule.
[15:05] - Unpacking the idea of 'pi-shaped' professionals, Evan details how these unique individuals bring multiple skill sets to one role, elevating their effectiveness and output, using a full-stack developer as an example.
[16:22] - Evan tackles the provocative statement that Agile is dead, offering insights and counterarguments to this bold claim.
[21:47] - Evan highlights a key finding: Agile Acumen emerges as the runner-up in the most coveted skills during the hiring process across organizations.
[24:50] - Evan stresses an important takeaway: 'The skills you have are valuable,' pointing out that the essence of Agile expertise transcends the exact wording of job descriptions.
[27:05] - Highlighting a necessary evolution in learning, Evan advocates for a move towards skill-based training and education, away from traditional role-focused models, to better prepare for the workforce of tomorrow.
[29:21] - Brian shares his gratitude for Evan and his work to help better understand the job market.
[30:02] - Brian invites listeners to join both him and Evan live and in person at the Global Scrum Gathering 2024 in New Orleans.
[30:33] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
[31:03] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Evan Leybourn
Skills in the New World of Work: Which Agile Skills are Most In-Demand in Today's Workforce?
Business Agility Institute
Directing The Agile Organization: A Lean Approach To Business Management by Evan Leybourn
#noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value by Evan Leybourn
Global Scrum Gathering 2024
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of "Directing the Agile Organization" and "#noprojects; a culture of continuous value." Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy.

#92: Navigating Scrum Anti-Patterns with Stefan Wolpers

Join Brian and Stefan Wolpers as they explore the labyrinth of Scrum anti-patterns, shedding light on the crucial shifts needed in communication, event understanding, and organizational empowerment for Agile success.
Overview
Brian welcomes special guest Stefan Wolpers as they explore the maze of Scrum anti-patterns.
Discover the art of tackling communication breakdowns, unravel the misunderstandings that plague Scrum events, confront the systemic issues of organizational anti-patterns, and challenge the rigidity of dogmatism in Agile practices.
Whether you're a seasoned Scrum practitioner or new to the Agile philosophy, this conversation between Brian and Stefan will arm you with the insights needed to navigate the complexities of Scrum, enhance team collaboration, and drive successful Agile transformations. Tune in to transform your understanding and practice of Scrum, and take a step towards mastering the dynamic world of Agile.
Listen Now to Discover:
[1:06] - ​​Join Brian as he sits down with Stefan Wolpers, a seasoned Professional Scrum Trainer and the mastermind behind ‘The Scrum Anti-Patterns Guide,’ for a deep dive into the pitfalls to avoid for Scrum success.
[2:33] - Discover the power of inversion with Stefan, as he elucidates this groundbreaking learning principle, challenging traditional methods and revolutionizing our approach to personal and professional development.
[5:21] - Stefan delves into the critical issue of communication breakdown and assumptions among teams, revealing effective strategies to address and navigate these common pain points.
[10:01] - Listen as Stefan highlights the transformative impact of trust building and team bonding, revealing their significance as key elements in bridging cultural differences and bringing remote teams closer together.
[12:02] - Brought to you by Mountain Goat Software, the Agile Mentors Podcast invites you to enhance your Scrum skills through the Certified Scrum Product Owner® course. Explore a world of Agile learning opportunities by checking out Mountain Goat Software's extensive training schedule.
[13:03] - Join Stefan as he delves into the Scrum framework, highlighting the Daily Scrum and Sprint Planning as events ripe with anti-patterns, and providing guidance on overcoming these obstacles for smoother sprints.
[18:10] - Listen as Stefan illuminates the critical anti-pattern of lacking empowerment within organizations, emphasizing its widespread impact and proposing pathways to cultivate a more empowered workforce.
[22:08] - Explore with Brian the significance of an anti-dogmatic stance, highlighting its role as a pivotal anti-pattern in fostering innovation and adaptability in Agile environments.
[26:14] - Brian shares a big thank you to Stefan for joining him on the show.
[29:01] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community.
[30:01] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback, a question, or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Stefan Wolpers
The Scrum Anti-Patterns Guide by Stefan Wolpers
Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Mike Cohn’s Letting Go of Knowing
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Stefan Wolpers is the author behind "The Scrum Anti-Pattern Guide" and a celebrated Professional Scrum Trainer known for his unparalleled expertise in Agile methodologies. Stefan has dedicated his career to empowering professionals around the globe.