Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software

#91: Revolutionizing HR with Pia-Maria Thorén

Dive into an enlightening conversation with Brian Milner and HR innovator Pia Maria Thorén on the transformative power of Agile in HR and leadership. Discover a people-centric approach that champions attitude, growth, and empathy.
Overview
Join Brian Milner in this compelling episode as he sits down with Agile and HR expert Pia Maria Thorén, who shares her insights on revolutionizing Human Resources and leadership with Agile project management principles.
Pia Maria delves into the critical shift from traditional hiring practices to prioritizing attitude and potential, fostering a nurturing candidate experience, and the vital role of team involvement in the hiring process.
Through her advocacy for empathy and a people-centric approach, Pia Maria outlines how understanding and support can transform handling performance challenges and layoffs into opportunities for growth. Tune in to explore how these strategies not only enhance HR practices but also pave the way for more dynamic, resilient organizations.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:13] - Dive into an enlightening conversation with Pia-Maria Thorén, the visionary author behind 'Agile People' and a leading expert in Agile human resources.
[02:30] - Join Pia-Maria as she unfolds the compelling narrative of Agile's breakthrough into HR practices, crafting a more effective and adaptive approach to leadership and human resources management.
[07:46] - Hear from Pia-Maria as she unveils the secrets behind Agile's innovative recruitment and hiring strategies, focused on creating an environment where candidates are eager to work and flourish.
[09:44] - Brian explores the catalyst behind Agile hiring practices, pondering how organizations kick-start the recruitment process when their sights are set not on vacancies but on attracting the perfect fit.
[10:55] - Shifting the focus from traditional job slots to dynamic team contributions, Pia-Maria introduces the transformative concept of 't-shaped' teams in recruitment, urging a reevaluation of how we define the ideal candidate in job descriptions and hiring processes.
[13:08] - Brian draws upon Simon Sinek's insightful video, dissecting the intricate relationship between trust and performance in teams, and highlighting the importance of trust in the makeup of high-performing teams.
[15:00] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software. Elevate your expertise with their Certified Scrum Product Owner® course and gain exclusive access to Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community for a full year of continuous coaching and support. Explore the full spectrum of Certified Scrum and Agile Training on the Mountain Goat Software schedule.
[16:44] - Pia-Maria introduces a groundbreaking perspective on measuring team success, steering away from individual performance metrics and static goals towards a more dynamic and holistic assessment strategy.
[21:37] - Pia-Maria delves into the complex dynamics of employee departures and layoffs within the Agile HR framework, questioning how these principles reshape traditional approaches to such challenging situations.
[28:11] - Pia-Maria raises compelling counterpoints to the general avoidance of specialization, inviting listeners to consider the circumstances under which honing in on specialized skills could be advantageous.
[29:24] - Brian shares a big thank you to Pia-Maria for joining him on the show, inviting listeners to connect through Agile People or LinkedIn.
[31:07] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, CSPO, or Mike Cohn’s Live Online Better User Stories class, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
[31:40] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Agile People
Agile People: A Radical Approach for HR & Managers by Pia-Maria Thorén
Agile People Principles by Pia-Maria Thorén
Agile People Picture Book by Pia-Maria Thorén et al.
“How Do You Measure Success?” By Simon Sinek
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Scrum Gathering in New Orleans 2024
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Pia-Maria Thorén is the founder of Agile People and author of ‘Agile People' and specializes in driving organizational agility through HR, leadership, and motivation. She creates workplaces where employees perform better and feel engaged, contributing to successful transformations from both financial and human perspectives

#90: Mastering Agile Coaching with Cherie Silas

Join Brian Milner and Master Coach Cherie Silas as they discuss the intricate dance between professional coaching and Agile coaching and unlock the secrets to empowering Agile transformations.
Overview
Join us on a captivating journey with Brian Milner and Cherie Silas, the visionary founder of Tandem Coaching, as they delve deep into the nuances that distinguish professional coaching from Agile coaching and learn why adopting a coaching mindset is crucial for effective Agile coaching.
Explore the pivotal role of an Agile coach within an organization and the fine art of balancing consulting with true coaching to foster empowerment and self-solution finding.
Cherie unravels the complexities of Agile practices, the thin line between coaching and counseling, and the transformative Tandem Coaching program.
This episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to understand the essence of agile transformation and how it's not just about adopting new practices but about achieving meaningful business outcomes. Whether you're an aspiring agile coach or a seasoned professional seeking to deepen your understanding, this conversation is your gateway to elevating your agile journey.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:18] - Join Brian as he greets Cherie Silas, the visionary behind Tandem Coaching, co-author of 'Enterprise Agile Coaching,' and a revered Master Coach.
[03:38] - Listen in as Cherie clarifies the essential differences and intersections between professional coaching and the dynamic field of Agile coaching.
[07:07] - Explore with Cherie as she articulates the nuanced differences between being labeled an 'Agile Coach' and embodying the true essence of Agile coaching.
[09:15] - Cherie shares her expertise on striking the perfect balance between consulting and coaching, highlighting strategies for blending these two vital roles effectively.
[12:12] - Brian highly endorses Cherie’s dynamic, mentorship-driven Professional Coach Training for anyone looking to deeply enrich their coaching abilities.
[14:42] - Learn from Cherie the critical role of engaging as a thought partner in coaching clients, a fundamental strategy for fostering profound and effective Agile coaching connections.
[18:00] - Discover with Cherie the dynamic strategy of engaging clients with thought-provoking questions like, "What's the challenge we're tackling?" and "What's the goal we're striving towards?" This approach not only clarifies objectives but also charts the course towards achieving them, making each coaching session a journey of mutual exploration and growth.
[22:04] - If you're on the path to becoming a Certified Scrum Master, look no further than Mountain Goat Software's engaging, top-rated courses. Beyond the interactive classes, you'll gain a year-long membership to the Agile Mentors Community—a vibrant space to both give and receive mentorship. Dive deeper into your Agile practice and explore the Mountain Goat Software Training Schedule today.
[24:47] - Join Cherie as she unveils the foundational pillars of becoming an exceptional coach - the art of active listening, the skill of insightful questioning, and the journey through coaching training.
[27:17] - Brian invites listeners into a thought-provoking exploration of the nuanced differences between coaching and counseling, questioning how to skillfully navigate the boundaries that define and differentiate them.
[31:44] - Brian shares a big thank you to Cherie for joining him on the show, inviting listeners to pick up the book, ‘Enterprise Agile Coaching’ and highly recommends Tandem Coaching’s training programs.
[33:15] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback, a great idea, or a guest suggestion for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Tandem Coaching
Enterprise Agile Coaching: Sustaining Organizational Change Through Invitational Agile Coaching by Cherie Silas, Michael de la Maza, and Alex Kudinov
Professional Coach & Team Coach Training with Cherie Silas and Tandem Coaching
2024 Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Cherie Silas is a Certified Enterprise Coach (CEC) and is the first agile coach to be awarded the ICF Master Certified Coach (MCC). She is the Founder and CEO of Tandem Coaching with a 20-year legacy in corporate leadership and co-author of the book Enterprise Agile Coaching: Sustaining Organizational Change Through Invitational Agile Coaching

#89: Transformational One-on-Ones with Avipaul Bhandari

Join Brian and Avipaul Bhandari as they uncover a secret to transformative Agile teams. Discover how one-on-one conversations can redefine team dynamics and even scaled organizational culture.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Avipaul Bhandari, a seasoned Agile coach, takes us through the critical role of one-on-one meetings in nurturing agile teams.
Avipaul sheds light on how such meetings are pivotal in building trust, understanding individual perspectives, and fostering a culture of empathy. By adopting a coaching mindset, Scrum Masters and coaches can empower team members to lead the conversation, encouraging them to uncover and propose their own solutions.
Listen in as they explore the profound impact these meetings have on scaling agile principles and catalyzing cultural transformation within organizations. Through emphasizing individual strengths and ensuring a safe environment for honest dialogue, one-on-ones emerge as a key strategy for enhancing team performance and achieving agile excellence.
Tune in to learn how you can leverage one-on-one meetings to unlock the full potential of your team and spearhead a shift in your organizational culture.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:15] - Brian warmly welcomes Avipaul Bhandari, a distinguished Agile coach and musician, joining us by popular demand from our listener community.
[02:26] - Avipaul unveils the secrets behind effective one-on-one interactions and their ripple effect on enhancing organizational culture.
[05:54] - Avipaul heralds human connection as a key driver of positivity and cohesion within teams, advocating for its impact on team success.
[07:14] - Discover how Avipaul successfully navigated resistance to one-on-one meetings, turning reluctance into productive conversations, even from those claiming to have nothing to say.
[10:55] - Mountain Goat Software is the sponsor for this podcast. Whether you’re looking to get Certified ScrumMaster® (CSM) or Certified Scrum Product Owner® (CSPO) training or want to take an Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® (ACSM) class, click here to see what we have to offer.
[12:00] - Brian discusses the profound impact of empathy and Simon Sinek's approach to nurturing a culture of psychological safety.
[13:05] - Avipaul shares insights on enhancing empathy in the team members and yourself through the intimate dialogue of one-on-one meetings.
[19:23] - Avipaul unpacks how one-on-ones within scaled teams can significantly boost processes and deeply motivate team members.
[23:10] - Brian highlights how these interactions can embody and influence the broader company culture through demonstration, creating a ripple effect of positive change.
[23:47] - Avipaul makes a compelling case for the power of respect in eliciting the best performance from everyone.
[26:43] - Brian shares a big thank you to Avipaul for joining him on the show and the lister who suggested him! If you have a topic or person you would love to hear on the podcast, send your suggestions to podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
[27:41] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®, Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes; you can find the schedule here.
[28:41] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Avipaul Bhandari
Listen to Avipaul’s music on Spotify
Simon Sinek’s Books
Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Avipaul Bhandari is an established agile coach and musician with over 20 years of experience. He is an intuitive and knowledgeable change agent and has been instrumental in successful agile adoptions in companies such as Microsoft, the Financial Times, Allianz, and others.

#88: Slicing Work For Agile Success With Anton Skornyakov

Join Brian Milner and Anton Skornyakov as they tackle the often overlooked art of slicing work on this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Discover how this pivotal strategy can revolutionize feedback loops and drive impactful results across industries.
Overview
Join us on a riveting journey with Agile expert Anton Skornyakov to unearth the transformative power of slicing work in Agile environments.
In a world where most projects miss the mark on effective breakdown, Anton sheds light on the critical need for well-sliced work to secure valuable customer feedback and accelerate delivery of results.
From the nuanced art of vertical slicing to innovative strategies for tackling complex story breakdowns, this episode is packed with insights and practical examples that span beyond the confines of software development. Whether you're grappling with how to split your next project into manageable increments or seeking to refine your Agile practice, Anton's expert advice and favorite splitting techniques offer a roadmap to success.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:20] - Brian introduces an Agile Mentors Podcast listener-requested guest, Anton Skornyakov, Certified Scrum Trainer® and author of The Art of Slicing Work.
[02:20] - Hear Anton recount the real-world struggles of translating the fundamental principle of defining effective increments into actionable insights for teams beyond software development.
[04:39] - Anton delves into the art of work slicing by expertly applying the rules for splitting user stories, revealing insights for seamless practice.
[06:41] - Anton brings vertical slicing to life with a relatable dinner party analogy, illustrating its transformative impact on teamwork.
[11:12] - Anton uncovers the magic of vertical slicing, revealing its pivotal role in enhancing team responsibility—an esteemed Agile virtue.
[13:01] - Facing challenges in cultivating a unified understanding of Agile principles across your team? Let Mountain Goat Software elevate your team's agility—from non-software teams to the executive suite.
[13:58] - Brian expands the conversation to explore the far-reaching implications of vertical slicing on project management and team dynamics.
[16:36] - Confronting a familiar hurdle, Anton dissects the notion that the complexity of work stands in the way of effective slicing.
[17:57] - Anton explores strategies for navigating resistance when team members push back against the practice of slicing work.
[19:20] - Anton reveals his insights into teams' struggles with splitting tasks they deem too large and how to overcome this perception.
[24:43] - Anton shares his favorite ways of breaking down work.
[28:47] - Brian expresses heartfelt gratitude to Anton for his invaluable insights on today's show and extends a warm thank you to the listeners for their brilliant guest recommendations. If you have a guest or topic suggestion for an upcoming episode, send us an email at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
[39:56] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Please like, subscribe, and share with your friends.
[30:30] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
The Art of Slicing Work by Anton Skornyakov
Agile.Coach
Introduction to Agile
Working on a Scrum Team
Agile for Leaders
Mountain Goat Software’s Courses
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Anton Skornyakov is a Certified Scrum Trainer® and author of The Art of Slicing Work. He is passionate about educating and supporting organizations, reliably delivering results on unpredictable projects.

#87: Testing Beyond Assumptions with David Bland

Join Brian and David Bland as they journey into the novel idea of testing assumptions before development to avoid costly mistakes and ensure the right things are being built in the latest episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast—a must-listen for any product owner wanting to determine if their team is working on the right thing.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian talks all things testing with David Bland, the founder of Precoil and co-author of the book Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation.
Learn the importance of testing assumptions and experimentation in product development as David shares his journey from working in startups to coaching and consulting and how he realized the need to bring Agile principles into the discovery phase of product development.
You can listen in as they explore the concept of testing business ideas and the three-step process of extracting assumptions, prioritizing them, and running experiments.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:01] - Brian introduces David Bland, founder of Precoil and co-author of Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation.
[02:10] - David dives into weaving testing assumptions and experimentation into managing the product backlog for product owners.
[02:51] - David discusses how you can determine if you're working on the right things and prevent iteratively delivering something that nobody cares about by applying the Agile principles further upstream.
[04:20] - Brain adds insight with the notion of being selective as the product owner, referencing the work of Henrik Kniberg.
[05:18] - David breaks down the themes he developed from design thinking and how they apply beautifully to the product backlog: desirable, viable, & feasible
[06:50] - Brian asks the question burning through many of our minds, “How do you apply it to testing your ideas?”
[07:15] - David lays out the three-step process he uses and applies to testing business, product, and service ideas.
[08:32] - David discusses the difference between requirements and assumptions.
[10:33] - David provides a practical example of adding wishlist functionality to a website and what testing this idea would look like under his testing framework.
[14:47] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Private Training for Agile transformations. Get your team on the same page through customized training and coaching programs to level-set your team. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training page.
[16:07] - Brian poses the concept of asking, “How does an idea move the needle” before the idea is developed?
[18:14] - David shares his thoughts on running customer-facing acceptance criteria and the product death cycle, a term David coined.
[21:06] - David provides an example of a client who puts a positive spin on killing projects that prove not to be viable via testing.
[22:33] - Brian asks if there are testing methods that can be applied after a product launch as a lagging indicator of the launch.
[24:57] - Brian clarifies the value of testing before making a bet on a new product, even as an entrepreneur working alone, through the example of knowing how a bet will play out in a Las Vegas casino.
[25:38] - David lays out the common objections he sees from companies and how you could address them.
[27:13] - David lays out one of his favorite techniques for testing, concierge, which he lays out in detail in his book.
[30:41] - Brian draws the conversation back to the Agile Manifesto.
[31:49] - Brian shares a big thank you to David for joining him on the show.
[33:30] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
David Bland
Precoil
Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation by David Bland & Alexander Osterwalder
#25 Scaling with Henrik Kniberg
Agile Manifesto
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts
Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
David J Bland helps companies such as GE, Toyota, Adobe, HP, and Behr find product market fit using lean startup, design thinking, and business model innovation through his company, Precoil. He is the lead author of Testing Business Ideas with Alexander Osterwalder.

#86: Revisiting User Stories with Mike Cohn

Have you ever returned to an old User Story and wondered, “what was I thinking?” On today’s episode, Mike Cohn, walks us through how and why he recently revisited and updated 200 Real Life User Story Examples from his past projects and updated a resource for you! Listen in as Mike and Brian share what worked and what didn’t work from the past, in an effort to make their user story writing skills stronger.
Overview
What makes a user or job story great? In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Mike Cohn of Mountain Goat Software, share Mike’s recent updates and edit to 200 Real Life User Story Examples.
Listen as they revisit 200 older user stories, breaking down their analysis through the lens of more experience and an evolving technological landscape.
Plus, in true iterative fashion, Mike shares how he is still working to write better user stories after years of perfecting and teaching the art of story writing.
Tune in to learn what makes a great clear user story, and what makes a story that stinks.
Listen Now to Discover:
[00:57] - Brian is joined today by Mike Cohn who will be revisiting user stories.
[02:58] - Mike talks about how he came back to these 200 user stories and decided that some of them sucked and needed updating.
[04:42] - When writing user stories, Mike talks about prioritizing meaningful conversations over perfect user stories.
[06:35] - Brian underscores the importance of efficient communication with developers through unconventional yet practical user stories.
[07:22] - Brian points to previous podcast episodes with Mike that delve into the basics of writing user stories, in episode, #10 Why User Stories are the Best Way to Capture Requirements with Mike Cohn and #39 The Art of Writing User Stories with Mike Cohn
[08:22] - Mike walks through a story written for the development of the Scrum Alliance website, noting it is framed well within the site's premise.
[09:10] - Brian raises considerations about inserting information mid-story.
[09:57] - Mike finds the story intriguing but suggests simplifying it by moving details into acceptance criteria, a notion that didn’t exist at the time, for clarity.
[12:03] - Mike advocates for concise user stories, suggesting omitting unnecessary details and using acceptance criteria for specifics.
[13:52] - In a job story example, Mike and Brian point out common mistakes from an era without distinct fields.
[16:34] - Brian understands the attempt to prompt discussion in the job story but finds it normal overall.
[17:32] - Mike critiques a job story for site admins approving job postings, suggesting modernizing language for notification methods and flexibility.
[19:34] - Reflecting on a story about user authentication, Mike acknowledges a bias toward email-centric perspectives, and questions if this story goes too far separating the what and the how.
[21:22] - Mike highlights story #42, recognizing a potential mistake in specifying UI details in a story about navigating job listings.
[23:24] - If you’re struggling to get your team or organization on the same Agile page from team members to senior executives. Mountain Goat Software can help you Build a Common Understanding of Agile on your team!
[24:17] - If you’re a visual learner or you’d like to follow along, you can find the pdf of all the user and job stories discussed in this episode, plus many more, right here.
[25:12] - Mike defends a story about viewing detailed course pages, acknowledging UI implications but justifying the necessity of the detail.
[27:13] - Mike critiques a user story about creating user accounts, cautioning against a potentially misleading "so that" clause with a specific example.
[29:18] - Reflecting on the evolution of user stories, Mike emphasizes a shift from stating "I can" or "I want to" to a more neutral "I."
[30:40] - Critiquing a user story about browser compatibility, Mike suggests that it's a nonfunctional requirement and better suited as part of the definition of done.
[33:18] - Brian presents a user story for Mountain Goat Software’s Planning Poker tool about database indexes, expressing reservations about the commonality of developer-focused stories.
[34:00] - Mike reflects on the “as a developer” story and expresses uncertainty about its inclusion, considering it potentially problematic.
[36:22] - Mike critiques a story about database analysis, acknowledging its verbosity but justifying the detail as necessary for clarifying the researcher's role and objectives.
[38:03] - Brian appreciates the brevity of the "I want" part of a user story and finds the "so that" clause acceptable as it provides examples and context for developers.
[38:39] - Considering a story about storing results, Mike deems it not bad but potentially too long.
[40:00] - Mike highlights that the best way to get better at writing stories is to write a bunch of them, acknowledging that his early stories taught him valuable lessons.
[41:03] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
[41:29] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Free download: 200 User Story Examples
#10 Why User Stories are the Best Way to Capture Requirements with Mike Cohn
#39 The Art of Writing User Stories with Mike Cohn
User Stories Applied: For Agile Software Development by Mike Cohn
Job Stories Offer a Viable Alternative to User Stories by Mike Cohn
Mountain Goat Software’s Planning Poker
Better User Stories Course
Build a Common Understanding of Agile
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection.

#85: Effectively Managing Dependencies with Ken Rubin

In this week’s episode, Brian is joined by the legendary Ken Rubin, the author of Essential Scrum. Together, they dive deep into the world of dependencies in larger organizations and scaling, drawing from Ken's extensive experience since the early days of Scrum. If you're navigating the complexities of dependencies and looking to optimize your team's flow, this episode is a must-listen.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes the iconic Ken Rubin to explore the intricate realm of dependencies at scale. They dive into the impact of dependencies on flow, the challenges of scaling, and the effectiveness of feature teams in managing structural dependencies.
Ken shares valuable insights into the myths surrounding dependencies and practical strategies for minimizing their impact, whether they involve external partners, scarce specialized roles, or deliberate component teams.
As a bonus, Ken announces his upcoming one-day live online course where you’ll dive deeper into effective dependency management strategies, Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back!
Tune in as Ken and Brian provide practical wisdom, actionable strategies, and a wealth of knowledge.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:16] - In today’s episode, Brian sits down with the first director of the Scrum Alliance and author of Essential Scrum, Ken Rubin.
[03:03] - Ken defines dependencies as a relationship between two or more entities that requires collaboration or coordination.
[04:31] - Ken distinguishes two dependency types: structural and instantiated.
[06:48] - Brian emphasizes addressing the root cause of dependencies, comparing it to optimizing water flow in plumbing systems.
[08:06] - Ken stresses the importance of addressing structural dependencies to prevent them from becoming blockers and impeding flow.
[10:18] - Brian highlights an upcoming one-day live online course with Ken titled Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! on March 14th, emphasizing its relevance for Scrum Masters and product owners.
[11:10] - Ken defines the concept of flow and compares it to the concept of utilization.
[13:04] - Leaders listening should prioritize optimizing flow over squeezing individuals for efficiency.
[14:23] - Ken underscores the importance of managing structural dependencies by balancing system-level WIP.
[16:28] - Ken debunks the myth that 100% feature teams can eliminate all dependency issues.
[19:14] - Ken shares how feature teams are compelling but face exponential challenges.
[21:45] - Ken explores the need for specialized roles in scaling feature teams, proposing a threshold approach.
[24:57] - Discover why Ken advocates for a combined feature and component team model, suggesting systemic swarming for specialized roles.
[26:55] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Private Training for Agile transformations. Get your team on the same page through subject-specific training, coaching, and mentoring. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training page.
[28:06] - Ken challenges the idea of a one-size-fits-all solution for dependency problems, cautioning about tool limitations.
[30:25] - Ken proposes expanding the concept of working agreements to include inter-team arrangements.
[33:55] - Ken highlights the misconception of solving external dependencies through internal escalation, stressing the limitations and challenges.
[35:40] - Ken dispels the myth that identifying dependencies means solving the problem, emphasizing the need for control.
[38:35] - Brian highlights the significant impact of waiting time, using the example of ordering a t-shirt online.
[39:36] - Addressing flow problems in scaling challenges is crucial.
[42:35] - Brian underscores the impact of addressing flow issues and promotes Ken's upcoming one-day live online course, Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! on March 14th
[43:24] - Brian highlights the value of Ken's insights on dependencies and provides helpful resources and links.
[43:50] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
[47:26] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
[48:12] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back!
Essential Scrum by Kenneth Rubin
Innolution
Dependencies Are Killing Your Agile Flow at Scale by Ken Rubin
#47 Exploring Lean Thinking In Agile Development with Bob Payne
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts
Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Ken Rubin is the #1 best-selling author of Essential Scrum and world-renowned Agile trainer and coach. Ken focuses on full end-to-end business agility, applying agile ways of working with your development teams, technical and business leaders, executives, as well as the important non-development groups that are critical to providing your whole product solutions.

#84: Listener Questions with Brian Milner

Join Brian in this solo episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as he tackles listener questions, discussing topics ranging from the impact of AI on Scrum teams to managing retrospective challenges and fostering active participation. Don't miss this episode filled with practical advice and thought-provoking discussions.
Overview
In this solo episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian answers listener questions unraveling everything from AI's role in Scrum to the complexities of Agile practices and team dynamics.
Listen in for valuable insights as Brian explores metrics for evaluating the effectiveness of product owners, offering key indicators for project success. He also discusses managing challenges within retrospectives, including strategies for handling upper management involvement, fostering transparent reporting, and the significance of visibility in sprint reviews.
Discover the art of promoting active participation in retrospectives—Brian underscores the significance of psychological safety within teams and offers actionable insights into tailoring retrospective approaches to your team’s diverse personality types.
Tune in as Brian answers listener questions with both practical wisdom and actionable advice.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:18] - In today’s episode, Brian sits down to answer Agile Mentors Podcast listener questions.
[01:59] - Brian briefly shares a personal update about speaking at the upcoming Global Scrum Gathering 2024 New Orleans and invites listeners to attend.
[03:21] - The first listener question explores whether AI can replace members of a Scrum team. Brian discusses the current state of AI and its potential applications in different roles within a Scrum team. He also shares how his team is using “Goatbot.”
[08:10] - For the second listener question Brian tackles the issue of handling resistance to Agile from a team member, sharing some strategies to understand the root cause and address misunderstandings.
[11:48] - Brian introduces the third question about using metrics to judge the effectiveness of a product owner.
[14:47] - Brian discusses handling retrospective issues involving upper management, and the value of transparent reporting.
[16:42] - Brian explores scenarios about the cost of addressing an impediment and the importance of transparent decision-making by the organization.
[17:22] - Brian suggests raising visibility in sprint reviews and seeking assistance from stakeholders or powerful individuals to address unresolved issues.
[18:45] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Certified Product Owner Course. This is a two-day training course taught by one of our Certified Scrum Trainers to teach you how to use the product backlog as a tool for project success. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule.
[24:39] - Brian explores the issue of low participation in retrospectives, and how to tailor approaches to different personality types for more active engagement. He highlights the work of Amy Edmondson, suggesting her research on psychological safety for deeper insights into team dynamics and participation.
[26:15] - Lack of safety may be the Scrum Master's responsibility.
[27:18] - Awareness of personality types is crucial for Scrum Masters. Brian advises varying retrospective formats to avoid monotony, including visual and written formats tailored to diverse preferences.
[30:38] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
[31:23] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
[32:39] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Global Scrum Gathering 2024 New Orleans
Psychological Safety – Amy C. Edmondson
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts
Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

#83 Navigating the Challenges of Small Agile Teams with Scott Dunn

Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they journey into the heart of handling conflicts and challenges within small teams for effective teamwork in the latest episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Scott Dunn sits down with Brian to delve into handling conflicts and challenges within small teams.
From the impact of hierarchies on team dynamics to the nuances of technical leadership, listen in as Brian and Scott tackle the intricacies of managing conflicts to navigate the delicate balance between individual excellence and fostering a collaborative team culture.
Listen in as Listen Now to Discover:
[01:54] - Today, Brian is sitting down with Scott Dunn to discuss the topic of handling conflicts and challenges in small teams, particularly regarding hierarchies and experience levels.
[03:17] - Scott shares his experience with issues arising from unofficial authorities, highlighting challenges with project managers and leads.
[04:03] - Scott talks about the transition to a democratic process and shares a humorous anecdote about a unique meeting disruption and the resolution.
[07:27] - Brian discusses the challenge of individuals feeling a loss of authority in the shift to self-organization and emphasizes the need for communication to address their concerns.
[08:27] - Brian categorizes leads into obstructive and unintentionally hindering types.
[09:27] - Scott discusses the need for aligning expectations with Agile principles.
[11:34] - Brian discusses the challenges faced by Scrum Masters and Agile coaches in identifying and addressing team dynamics, emphasizing the importance of clear communication, and understanding to resolve misunderstandings.
[12:07] - Scott shares an example of a scrum master effectively addressing a bottleneck issue with a lead.
[13:13] - Brian highlights a leadership misunderstanding where senior individuals are consistently assigned challenging tasks and the unintended consequences of pigeonholing experts into specific roles.
[14:35] - Scott shares experiences of individuals falling into roles they didn't initially choose, and the negative impact on job satisfaction.
[15:32] - The importance of promoting teamwork, continuous learning, and adaptability over being the sole expert.
[16:11] - Brian discusses the issue of knowledge silos and suggests a proactive approach within the team to mitigate risks and ensure knowledge sharing.
[16:32] - The importance of managing resource fungibility and avoiding bottlenecks.
[17:40] - Brian debunks the idea of job security for those deliberately hoarding knowledge and emphasizes the importance of staying marketable and adaptable.
[18:52] - Scott highlights the consequences of being difficult to work with and shares the secret for long-term professional success.
[20:00] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® course. Plus, automatic enrollment in Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community, including twelve months of ongoing coaching and support. To learn more, check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule.
[20:42] - How different roles, especially leads, should interact in a scrum team where equality is emphasized.
[21:34] - The importance of a lead developer having a mindset focused on helping others succeed and empowering the team.
[22:31] - Scott defines true technical leadership and the importance of empowering team members to scale workload and creating a culture of learning within the team.
[23:59] - The impact of senior team members as "pollinators of learning."
[24:56] - Brian defines a lead's role using sports analogies to illustrate leadership beyond individual excellence.
[26:48] - Brian shares the ‘see one, do one, teach one model for successful leadership and teams.
[27:57] - Leveling up expectations and helping and asking for help as a lead.
[32:32] - Setting the example by what you do, not by what you say.
[33:17] - The importance of leads in establishing culture.
[34:53] - Brian shares a big thank you to Scott for joining him on the show.
[35:29] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.
[36:10] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts
Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

#82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton

Join Brian and Emilia Breton as they explore AI and its practical applications in Agile, from enhancing productivity to coaching. Don't miss their insights on AI tools shaping the future of Agile.
Overview
Today, Brian sits down with Emilia Breton to unravel the dynamic intersection of Artificial Intelligence (AI) and Agile.
Brian and Emilia share their experiences and experiments with AI tools, revealing how they leverage these technologies to enhance productivity and decision-making and amplify human capabilities.
Listen in to learn more about the evolving landscape where AI and Agile converge to shape the future of work.
Listen Now to Discover:
[01:25] - Brian welcomes Emilia Breton to the show to talk about the intersection of AI and Agile, focusing on using AI to enhance human connections.
[03:04] - Emilia shares that it's about using AI to accentuate our humanity and create space for us to connect, observe, and inspire.
[05:15] - Emilia discusses the questions about copyright for AI-produced content, such as code and why It's important to be able to trace where AI-derived information comes from.
[06:02] - Brian reflects on the rapid evolution of mass-consumable AI and its transformative impact over the past year.
[06:39] - Emilia underscores the importance of visibility in AI outputs, and the need to cross-verify AI-generated information with human expertise.
[08:41] - Brian introduces the concept of hallucination in AI, emphasizing that AI can't think or reason, and it may generate false information to please users.
[10:29] - The importance and irreplaceable qualities of human competence.
[11:30] - How tools like Lucidspark can help with ideas during product brainstorms or retrospectives. Otter.ai and Spinach.io can automate tasks like taking meeting notes and updating Jira, saving time for more important work.
[14:16] - Brian introduces Rewind.ai, a tool that records computer activities for later recall, explaining its potential benefits and privacy considerations.
[16:10] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and today’s episode is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Certified ScrumMaster Class a two-day class covering the fundamental principles of scrum as well as detail about the different roles, meetings, and artifacts. For more information click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule.
[17:01] - Emilia explores the use of AI to spark inspiration, and shares generative AI art programs DALL·E or Midjourney.
[20:06] - Emilia discusses using Grammarly and AI as a partner in content creation, to iterate prompts to achieve the desired tone and style.
[21:10] - Discussing Google's new multimodal Gemini models, which can translate speech, text, video, and images.
[22:07] - NotebookLM is designed for researchers to organize and refer to research papers and articles. Brian shares his experience with this tool.
[22:48] - The speakers discuss using AI for data analysis to interpret large datasets, capture notes, brainstorm ideas, and facilitate retrospectives to enhance Agile practices.
[25:08] - Brian and Emilia discuss how AI can be a valuable tool in coaching and can assist in facilitating sessions.
[28:08] - What lies ahead with AI?
[29:24] - Brian sends a huge thank you to Emilia for being on the show. If you found this episode useful, please share this episode with others. We’d love your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can email us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode.
[30:09] - If this topic was impactful to you and you want to continue the discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community where we have a topic discussion for each podcast episode. You can get a free year-long membership in the community just by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Emilia Breton
Lucidspark
Otter.ai
Spinach.io
Rewind.ai
DALL·E
Midjourney
NotebookLM
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts
Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification
Certified Scrum Product Owner Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Emilia Breton is an Agile wizard with over two decades of experience, who effortlessly navigates the realms of startups and global corporations. Specializing in guiding both scrappy ventures and colossal entities, she brings innovative approaches to software development and team building. Emilia's commitment to injecting playfulness ensures a dynamic and creative touch to Agile practices, making her the go-to coach for those ready to elevate their software development game.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always Brian Milner, and today I have a very special good friend of mine who's come on with us. Miss Amelia Britton is on with us. Welcome in Amelia.
Emilia (00:15)
Thanks, Brian. It's great to be here.
Brian (00:17)
So glad we've finally been able to do this. I've been trying to arrange our schedules to do this for a while. So it's hard to really pin Amelia down on one thing that I would say, here's who she is, because she's a lot of things. I think coach, if I just said coach, I think that would be a very good term, because she's a very, very good coach. And... She's credentialed with the Scrum Alliance in that area. She's got the highest credential with IC Agile in this area. She's an IC Agile expert. She's worked the gamut. She's worked with startups. She's worked in very, very large companies. And we got to see each other in person at Agile 2023 last year. And really, that was the first time I think I've seen you in person in a while. And it just was really fun to see you and get to catch up there. So we thought we'd get Amelia on. And she's been doing some talks recently along a certain topic that I know people are really, really interested in. But it may not be exactly where you think we're going with this. But really it's talking about AI and Agile as it plays into AI. But like I said, it's not going to be, I think, where most people think we're going to go with this. So I'm talking too much. Emilio, why don't you take it from here? If it's not going to be where most people think we're going to go, how would you sum it up where we're going with this?
Emilia (01:49)
I think really it's about using AI to accentuate our humanity and create that space for us to do what we do best as humans, which is connect and observe and inspire.
Brian (01:54)
Mm, I love that. That's awesome. Yeah, I love that. So just to lay the foundation here a little bit, neither Amelia or myself are AI engineers. Neither of us work for open AI or anything like that. We are not in the thick of that AI world. We're consumers. We're consumers of it. And we're tech people. So We've spent our lives in and around software development teams. And that gives us a little bit of a unique perspective. I think that combined with the combining Agile with AI, I think, also is the other unique kind of perspective we're trying to bring to this. So let's kind of dive into this a little bit. When we start talking about AI and Agile, What are the kind of considerations you think are the most important things we should be dealing with when we start to delve into this area?
Emilia (03:07)
Yeah, I think one of the really first important things to know is to really think a little bit about the sort of ethical considerations when you're starting to use AI. You know, there's there are many privacy concerns. You know who owns the thing that you've created. Do you own it. Does it belong to everybody. The ownership of the things that this was trained on and knowing what it was trained on and where the data comes from. How do you keep your data safe and secure? Anything, you know, it all depends on what are the rules of the thing that you're putting your data into. Sometimes you're putting data in and you retain it as exclusively yours. And sometimes you're giving it to the model. So you want to be really careful in knowing what you're doing, knowing what the model is, and then making your own sort of ethical determinations around that. and what you want to use.
Brian (04:03)
Yeah, there's a, you know, I dabble in music sometimes and there's some interesting channels I followed on music with AI. And, you know, there's kind of a, there's one gentleman in particular who talks about copyright and music and AI. And one of the things that he proposes is that if it's AI produced, that he thinks there should not be a copyright for the content because it's not created by a human, it's created by a machine. And I found it to be kind of an interesting take on it. You know, and I wondered how that would play in our space. You know, if a machine writes code, is it private?
Emilia (04:41)
Yeah. And there's a lot of questions that kind of come around that. And right now, it looks like if you're following any of the big legal cases that have happened, that it may actually lean to, if you created it with the AI, you might not own it. So it's a consideration if you're starting to use any of these tools. Another one that's really big for me is explainability. So being able to tell.
Brian (05:05)
Okay.
Emilia (05:07)
where the AI got this information. Different models, different applications, you are better or worse at this. Certainly a lot have gotten better over the last few months. I mean, we're only really a year into this mass consumable AI world. I mean, certainly AI has been around since forever and big blue, but the mass consumption of it being available to you and I to just...
Brian (05:24)
Right.
Emilia (05:34)
go on the internet and use really came with chat GPT and those a year ago this week. So it's a new field. And we've gotten this much in a year, which is just, you know, we're in technology, we're in one of these growth curves. So everything's changing. But explainability like Google's model probably does it the best. They give you really great links. Others, you just don't know.
Brian (05:41)
That's amazing, isn't it? Yeah.
Emilia (05:58)
And there's a lot of push within the AI ethics community to really make that visible and be able to see. Because AI actually isn't competent, right? It doesn't actually know the things. In pretending, it is performing of being intelligent and competent. And so it's also important to keep that in mind. And that's one of the powers that we have as humans, is intelligence.
Brian (06:09)
Yeah.
Emilia (06:26)
We actually do have that competence to be able to check the AI, to be able to figure out, you know, is what it's saying true or not. There was an instance I was creating, I had a list of books and I said, OK, great list of books. Tell me more. Give me some more answers that are like this. Right. And one of the books it came up with, it was perfect. It was talking about
Brian (06:43)
Yeah.
Emilia (06:53)
Agile in Enterprises versus Startups. This was like exactly the book I wanted to read. I was so excited about it and it told me that it had been written. I think it was Diana Larsen and someone else. I don't remember who the other person was, but I was really excited because these were two people who I was like, oh, yes, I know they collaborated on a book. This is gonna be fabulous.
Brian (07:13)
Oh wow. Yeah.
Emilia (07:21)
Um, and I went to Diana's site and it wasn't there. It was like interesting and then Amazon and wasn't there. Um, and I went to the other individual site and it wasn't there. And I went to Lean Pub because you know, a lot of times we as Agilist will start something on Lean Pub. Um, and it wasn't there. Um, and I DMed Diana. I was like, I'm so excited. Tell me more. She's like, uh, not a book.
Brian (07:25)
Ha ha ha. No idea what you're talking about.
Emilia (07:50)
like, well guess what book you should write? Because it would determine like this is the book that you want to read and it fits with these other books. So interesting and scary but I totally hallucinated this thing existing. Had an ISBN number, had the authors, had a publish date, had a publisher. All the things that looked like a proper citation.
Brian (07:53)
Right. Yeah, that's an important thing for people to know. If you haven't really gotten too far into it or if you really kind of stayed out of it, the term hallucination is a term you'll become familiar with at some point because like Amelia said, it doesn't think, right? It can't think, it can't reason, but it is programmed to try to please you. It is programmed to try to give you what you want. And if it doesn't have the data, Sometimes it does this thing called hallucinations where it'll make it up. It'll kind of create it based on the data that already has. Yeah, I remember I've tried to push it in certain ways. I like to do a lot of just testing the boundaries. So I know from early on to, you know, for the past year, there have been times when I've done things with things like Chat GPT, where I've tried to push it and say, what's the answer that you have for this or... You know, and one of the things with Chat GPT is it's not, or at least for a period of time, I guess now it is kind of connected, but for a period of time, it was not directly connected to live data. So there's no way you could have it search the internet and find something out. Now there are ways that you can have it do that. But I remember early on trying to get it to tell me the score of a game. And it was a professional sports game. And it said, oh, yeah, here's the score. Here's what happened. These are the stats from the game. No, that game hasn't happened yet. It's this date, and that's not happening till. And you'll get that typical response. I apologize. You are correct. I did not. I apologize for giving you incorrect data. Right.
Emilia (09:55)
Yeah, I've only been trained till September 2021.
Brian (09:58)
Right, right, right. So that's something to just be familiar with is, like you said, it can't reason. It's really approximating what it's doing to you based on all the huge volume of data that it has and trying to craft a response that is similar to the data that it's already been fed. So I'm probably telling people things they already know, but just in case you didn't know that, wanted to state that.
Emilia (10:23)
But it's super important to always keep that in your head. And this is one of the places where AI really can't replace us. We are truly competent. We are truly creative. We are truly innovative. And that's the place where we as humans really stand out. And I've been using AI for a bunch of things and experimenting with at my work. Fortunately, I work for a startup, so things are much easier to get through. It's a matter of having a conversation. having one of our wonderful legal team take a look at things and then give me the go ahead. I don't have a lot of red tape that I'm sure some of your folks who are in larger enterprises may have. But I've had the opportunity to play with a bunch of things that have been really helpful. I sort of, there's like two sort of categories of things I've been looking at. The first one is stuff that automates the non-promotable work. So.
Brian (11:15)
Yeah.
Emilia (11:16)
All of the little things that we have to do that take a lot of time, but nobody's gonna remember you for. Nobody is going to remember you for taking wonderful notes of that meeting. Nobody's gonna remember how accurate you were at updating Jira. People are gonna remember the impacts that you made on them and their teams. And that's the work I wanna spend my time doing and not spend as much time on the other stuff.
Brian (11:43)
Right.
Emilia (11:45)
So I've played with a bunch of different apps. I don't know if it's okay to talk about specific ones. Yeah.
Brian (11:48)
No, yeah, please go ahead. Yeah. I'm sure people want to know some, want some tips. Yeah.
Emilia (11:53)
Yeah, so like one I love is Lucid Spark. So they are one of the mass of collaborative whiteboards and they have some really beautiful AI features. They're just ubiquitous built into their product that help when I'm facilitating. So I can have it take our massive wonderful, creative, messy ideas that we've all come up with when we're like doing a product brainstorm. And then... sort them all up so that we can really quickly like in moments as a team look at okay here's some different ways that this might be sorted where do we want to go next what do we want to do next um and that's just a super useful piece that they have and then say i'm done with that or i'm done with a retrospective to be able to get a okay let me select all the stuff and then give me a summary of what are all the things that happened
Brian (12:42)
Yeah.
Emilia (12:50)
And then I edit it because we're humans and we need that part, but it saves a lot of time. These are pieces that are just, it's using the technology to give us time to have better conversations, to have to work better as a team. It's just taking that out. So that's one that I love. There's another.
Brian (12:56)
Yeah. Yeah, I think of that, you know, I've tried to say to some people that it's more on the level of like a spell check, you know, like I don't I don't look at it like, you know, like I said, it's not it's not creating its own ideas. It can help you brainstorm, it can help you do things, but it does still have that human element that it requires to refine and to push back a little bit and say, yeah, but what if we went this way? So it's good if you look at it as this is another tool, this is a tool that can help me do things, yeah.
Emilia (13:43)
snack them. And there are a ton of tools that do that. You know, there's some great tools that will take your meeting notes for you. Otter.ai, Spinach.io are two that I've used that are pretty good. You know, Spinach has the plus of, it'll go update my JIRA for me, which of course we love. But they're things that are, they just take all of the bits and pieces and they do them for you. so that you can spend the time on the important stuff. And that's one of the things I'm loving with a lot of these nutrients.
Brian (14:14)
That's awesome. Yeah, there's one that I've come across as well. I'll just throw out there. And we're not plugging anything, trust me. We're just sharing our own experience. But there's one that I have used a little bit often on an experiment with, it's called Rewind. And yeah, now some people might think it's a little creepy. So let me explain and then you can decide if that's something you wanna experiment with or not. But Rewind basically kind of records everything on your computer.
Emilia (14:21)
No. Yeah, that's a pretty good one as well.
Brian (14:44)
I mean, you can tell it what not to record. You can say, don't do this. And you can set it up so that it will ask you any meetings. Should I record this one or not? But basically, it's sort of there in the background. And then you can call it up and say, I saw a website that was about this, or I saw something this week, or there was a meeting I was in where we talked about this topic. Can you recall that for me? And it'll say, yeah, here's the meeting, and here's the transcript of that part of your meeting where you talked about this thing. So I've heard people say it's sort of like my extended brain. And it does, I mean, my understanding is it's just local. It's not putting that out into the. world anywhere, it's not saving your data anywhere else, and you can control how much data it saves and everything else. But I understand that might have some privacy concerns, especially depending on someone's industry. If you're in a very highly secure industry, that might be a huge warning flag. So it's to each their own, I get it. But that's kind of where it's at, that boundary of let's see if it can do this. Oh yeah, it's actually. It actually can do this and it can do this pretty well. Yeah.
Emilia (16:04)
Yeah, and there's also like that's consent at that point becomes really important. Right, you're putting on your choosing, you're giving your consent to this thing. It's something you know, you wouldn't want somebody to impose upon you. That's when it goes from the useful tool into like creepy dystopian world, right? It's all about the consent and all about knowing and traceability and that kind of thing. And I think, you know, when you talk about some of the
Brian (16:23)
Right.
Emilia (16:32)
ethics folks, they are worried about crossing that line. It's just a matter of being aware, I think, at this point. And the other play way I've been using a lot of AI is for really working and helping it to spark and inspire stuff. And I've been doing a lot of that with using it to create metaphors. So.
Brian (16:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emilia (16:54)
One of my favorite things I've used it both in one-on-one coaching and then also in like team retrospectives is using some of the generative AI. I've used some of the generative AI music, some of your generative AI art programs like Dolly or Mid Journey to take what somebody is feeling, thinking, seeing about the situation, the sprint, and then having them write the prompt. to create that piece of generated art that they can then share because it takes us beyond our words as humans. And into that so that you can see visually or hear what I'm feeling and it creates this lovely emotional tone that lets us go into different places and ask different questions of each other in say a team environment or of an individual ourselves in a coaching kind of environment. It's really powerful because it's taking, you know, before we would say, okay describe it, tell me more about that. But to be able to show it, put it on the table, and then for that individual to look at it, or to listen to it and pick a part and tell me about this part, tell me about that, how does this connect? It just creates all of these other areas that we can explore. And that's the stuff like we're humans when we really excel.
Brian (18:16)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. And it's, you know, when we forget that, when we forget that and try to lean too heavily on it, then it's painfully obvious. It becomes really easy to spot and you're like, this is not human. This is not, this has no soul to it. This has no, you know, creativity or imagination. It's just spouting back stuff that I've seen and heard before.
Emilia (18:46)
million.
Brian (18:46)
But yeah, I think you're right. You know, if it can inspire me a little bit and say, yeah, I'm looking for something like this, give me some examples. You may get 10 examples back and then think, no, none of those are exactly right. But I like kind of how number seven talks about this. What if you gave me several examples like number seven, but tweak it this way? So that's the kind of. For me, that's the kind of back and forth that it takes to get something usable. It's just not write a book, here's the book, you know?
Emilia (19:20)
Yeah, I think one of the things that really we as Agilent have the power when we're using some of those AI things like chat GPT to generate content is the iterations that we're so good at. You know, I've done some work with like, okay, I'm going to use GPT. I'm going to use one of the large language models. Let me to get me started on writing a large piece of content. And then you iterate, you're like, no, more this, less this. What I actually like in that is less than starting the content and more, here's my piece of not very well-written content with all of my ideas and all these things. OK, so help me turn this into a tone that is more ABC. I love Grammarly for this. But give me a more playful tone. Give me a more.
Brian (19:58)
Thanks for watching. Right. Yeah.
Emilia (20:14)
business tone and you can take the same piece of content that you've written and then tailor it to different situations. Well it's still you. And iterating on that prompt like, you know, less marketing jargon, more, you know, and really till you get that piece. Kind of acts as a partner to help you inspect and adapt. To get it just the way you want it.
Brian (20:24)
Yeah. Ha ha ha. That's awesome. Yeah, and I like the idea of thinking of it kind of like a translator. You know, like when you talked about the images and stuff, that's what was going through my head is, you know, there's some people who do really well at creating images and drawing and digital artwork and everything. And there's other people who don't really know that language, don't know how to do that as well. But if we can have something that I can describe it to and it can create it for me, it's just a translation. It's taking my words, it's taking what my idea was and showing me a version of that. I can tweak it, I can push it one way or the other, but it's just giving a vocabulary, if you will, to my idea.
Emilia (21:26)
Exactly. And I think these are the things that are only going to get better. You know, we just recently had the release of Google's new Gemini models, which are multimodal, which is a whole other realm. So how can I take and translate, you know, speech and text and video and still images?
Brian (21:37)
Yeah. Ha ha ha.
Emilia (21:51)
and bring them all together into something. I'm really excited to play with them as they start hitting because I think that's the thing that's really going to unlock our power to do some really neat things together.
Brian (21:56)
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. By the way, there's a tool I'll mention as well that I've played with recently that I'll give a shout out to. Because for some of the stuff I've been trying to do, gather research and draw some conclusions from it and everything else, it's been a really helpful tool for that. Google has this tool out that's called Notebook LM. It was designed specifically for researchers. It allows you to, it's in the same mode or realm as sort of a custom GPT kind of thing, but you feed it research papers, articles, you feed it things that you've been using as a basis, and then it can help you. to refer back to the right thing and say, show me all the research about this, and it'll bring it up for you. So it's sort of just like a research assistant that you can use and you can create different little notebooks for different topics and other things. So I found that to be really, really useful. And that's kind of one of the newer tools that's out there in their experiments as well.
Emilia (23:08)
Yeah, I've been experimenting with OpenAI's data analysis and feeding it. So I have a set of surveys that I use with teams to really kind of look at, you know, where's your agile fluency? What are some of the markers of this team on their journey and different things like product, et cetera? And then feeding it these things and having it, you know, tell me more, you know, give me some analysis on this.
Brian (23:13)
Hmm, wow.
Emilia (23:33)
And I found it one that I had done previously. Usually when I take in a bunch of them, it takes me about a week to compile things, look at standard deviations, pull some things out about what I'm seeing as patterns. And it was able to produce the stuff that usually takes, again, I'm both human, around a week. I was able to do it. I mean, it did stop and start and feed and ask questions. And so there's tweaking. but probably within about 10 minutes on not terribly well clean formatted data. And its conclusions matched very closely with what I had done as far as analyzing the data. Now, of course, we take that and then based on that data analysis, what does that really mean? That parts us as humans. But it's a huge time saver when you're looking at large pieces of data.
Brian (24:19)
Right. Yeah, it's fascinating the kind of tools that are available to us, like you said. So this is great. I just want to reiterate a few things here. If you're... Working on Scrum teams, and you haven't considered doing something like this in the past, there are tools that could help you capture notes from maybe a sprint planning session or a sprint review. There are tools where you can help brainstorm new ideas for a retrospective or even take action items from that retrospective when you're done. So. This is what I'm saying, this is what I meant at the beginning. We're not going into the typical kind of areas with this. There are small little things that you can use this for today that I think can really give you a boost and enhance your practice.
Emilia (25:16)
Exactly and give your team the time for the stuff that your team is really great at It gives you the time more time to collaborate more time to have the conversations about how might we or what might we? Where we are wonderful Nope like I said before nobody's gonna remember you because you took great notes
Brian (25:21)
Yeah, that's great. Right. What about, and I know we're pushing up against our time, we'll try to wrap things up here, but what about because you have a lot of experience in the coaching realm, what about tools in that kind of aspect? How have these tools helped in sort of coaching practices?
Emilia (25:54)
Yeah, so one, obviously the metaphor I spoke about earlier, helping inspire those ideas and let us ask deeper questions, kind of, it's really great to put, say, a picture out and be able to tell me about this, tell me what's the significance of this, what do you see, what do you, or with team, what do you notice about this pattern of pictures? That's one I've used. Another one is I've used it just for my own sort of self-improvement.
Brian (26:21)
Hmm.
Emilia (26:22)
Um, I have a custom GPT that I trained and I fed it, you know, a bunch of stuff around ICF coaching ethics and how to be a great coach as far as those things. Um, and then I fed it some other, um, agile resources like the agile coaching growth wheel, um, and I've used it just to sort of have it ask me questions as I start exploring where do I want to go next. What do I want to do next? And I certainly have deeper more meaningful conversations with my human coaches Who coach me because I believe everybody needs a coach But they help me sort of sort my ideas and think about different areas and different things That I might not have thought of They're certainly not actually coaching me, but it does do pretty well at you know
Brian (26:57)
Sure. Ha ha.
Emilia (27:15)
pulling out those pieces so that I can think about what I need to think about and get a little bit out of my head. And it's useful for that.
Brian (27:21)
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I haven't even thought of using it for something like that, but that makes perfect sense. Again, it's just a tool. It's something that you can use to give you a push maybe in one direction or the other. But at the end of the day, it's still on you. It's still on you to actually do the work. That's awesome.
Emilia (27:37)
Exactly. Yeah. Another quick one I do is like, it's really good at taking all of your notes for a session and building a nice facilitation guide. It's easy to follow.
Brian (27:50)
I hadn't even thought of that. That's awesome. Yeah.
Emilia (27:52)
And like pieces like that are just like, just, it's like having, you know, it's like having an intern. Doesn't know anything. Who's brand new and fresh. But that fresh set of eyes can be useful.
Brian (27:59)
Yeah. Yeah. It's such an exciting time. I mean, I really, to me, it's just, like you said, it's only really been publicly around for about a year. And what we're talking about here is more these large language models. And we're not even really getting into machine learning and what might happen in this coming year with the combination of those two things.
Emilia (28:22)
Exactly.
Brian (28:28)
And then we're really cooking with gas, right? Then we're like, that's going to be amazing to see what kind of things come out of that combination. 2024, I think it's just going to be a really interesting year. You know, I know when that happened last year, I thought, you know, this feels a little bit like when the internet kind of launched. It's that kind of wild west kind of feel to things. And It feels a little like that's happening now, in this realm.
Emilia (28:56)
Yeah, I think it's going to be really interesting.
Brian (28:57)
All right, well, this has been. Yeah, I agree. Well, Amelia, this has been really interesting. I've had a really good time talking with you about this stuff. It's, you know, we could talk about this for a long, long time. And it might be interesting for us to check in maybe next year and say, look what's happened since the last time we talked. Here's where it was then and let's see where it is now. But thank you for proposing this and coming on and talking with us. And I really appreciate you sharing your research and learnings and insights on this recently.
Emilia (29:30)
Thank you.