Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software

#154: The Underpowered PO with Barnaby Golden

Join Brian and Barnaby Golden as they dig into a surprisingly common roadblock in Agile teams, the underpowered product owner, and how it quietly derails decision-making, flow, and team momentum.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes Agile coach and community contributor Barnaby Golden to explore the risks and ripple effects of placing a product owner in the role without the authority to own it.
They discuss the stark difference between empowered and underpowered product owners, why availability without authority is a setup for frustration, and how misalignment at the leadership level creates more theater than agility. From trust gaps to political decision-making, Barnaby and Brian unpack the hidden reasons teams get stuck and what it takes to create real, empowered ownership that delivers actual value.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Barnaby Golden
#104: Mastering Product Ownership with Mike Cohn
#3: What Makes a Great Product Owner? With Lance Dacy
How to Engage and Help Busy Product Owners by Mike Cohn
What Happens When For Product Owners
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This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Barnaby Golden is an experienced Scrum Master and Agile Coach with a knack for helping teams truly live Agile, not just adopt it. Lately, he’s been diving into the real-world use of AI—helping organizations, including nonprofits, turn tech hype into practical, high-impact tools with smart governance
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner
(00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors, we're back. This is another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm here with you as always, Brian Milner, and we have a very special guest with us today. We have Mr. Barnaby Golden with us. Barnaby, welcome in.
Barnaby Golden (00:14)
Thank you, it's good to be here.
Brian Milner (00:16)
Very excited to have Barnaby here. Barnaby is an Agile coach, also a Scrum Master. He is known to us because he is part of our Agile Mentors community. And he is an active member there and has weighed in on several issues and helped people and mentored people through things there. So we wanted to share some of the wisdom of the crowd that we have there at Agile Mentors. Just a few select people that have really contributed. and giving us some really good advice there with the podcast audience as well. So you guys can kind of hear what kind of stuff is there on the Agile Mentors discussion forums. But we were talking about topics here with Barnaby about what we were going to talk about and he proposed one that I really found intriguing. It was focusing around the underpowered product owner, the underpowered PO. And I think that's probably a good place for us to start then, Barnaby. Why don't you kind of just explain to everyone what that idea is, what you mean by the underpowered PO.
Barnaby Golden (01:12)
Sure, of course. So in fact, what I'll do is I'll explain it by giving you the opposite, which is what does a good, effective, powerful product owner look like? And I was working for an organization a few years back, it was a publishing organization. And we had the head of the editorial team was the product owner for a particular Scrum team.
Brian Milner (01:16)
Okay.
Barnaby Golden (01:38)
And this head of editorial had a lot of power and influence in the organization. They were pretty much a decision maker in terms of the products that the team was building. And I remember a particular conversation where the team was talking to this product owner and the team said, look, we know you want to get this, this release out this week, but we've got some technical debt. really need to fix it. And I remember the, this guy saying, look, okay. I'm going to let me think about this for a second. Okay. I can make the decision on this, which is, yep, you can have your time. I'll communicate with others within the organization. The release will be delayed. And that was such a powerful moment because in that second, the decision was made. The product owner trusted the team, the team completely trusted the product owner. And it felt slick and efficient and worked really well. Conversely, I've worked in organizations where in some way, surprisingly enough, product owner is seen as quite a junior role. So I've seen the situation where you have a whole hierarchy of product people and the most junior role in the product organization is the product owner. And what happens in that scenario is the product owner is powerless to make a lot of decisions. So they have to push them up the tree. And in that situation, the conversation between the team and the product owner is the team says, yeah, we need to do this thing. And the product owner says, okay, give me some time. Might be a day and I'll get back to you. Hopefully I can get in contact with other people within my hierarchy and the flows broken. What's the team going to do now? They're going to maybe find something alternative to work on. It's very frustrating. And you sometimes get the situation as well where the the underpowered product owner will sympathize with something the team is saying, but will not be able to make a change because they haven't got the authority to do the change. So they'll say, yeah, I agree with you. I know what you're saying. This is a really bad idea what's being suggested, but I have no choice. We have a roadmap. We've got to meet the roadmap.
Brian Milner (03:45)
Yeah, that's a clear picture. I agree with you that those are two stark contrasts. And what I like about the explanation is you kind of highlight the effectiveness of one versus the ineffectiveness of the other, right? It's just, it's such a dramatic difference when that person is able to make the decisions on the spot. go forward, and the team is just free to move as quickly as possible. Whereas the other one, it's just holdups. It's just delays and obstacles, roadblocks in the team's way. So yeah, a really clear picture there. Just as you were talking about this, I was thinking to myself, well, maybe one of the worthy paths for us to go down here and talking about this. is trying to understand a little bit about the why behind it. ⁓ Because I think there's, just in thinking about it, I think there's maybe several causes for this or several things that might lead to having an underpowered PO. What's been your experience? What kind of things have you seen that might contribute to an underpowered PO?
Barnaby Golden (04:36)
Hmm. I think the main reason, the biggest driving factor behind it is the feeling that the people with the authority to make decisions do not have time to spend with the team. So you've got your head of product or the real decision makers in the organization. They are saying, I can't spend two, three hours a week with a team. I can't go to a planning meeting. got, you know, I'm a busy person. I've got things on my schedule. So they see the product owner role as a stand-in for themselves with the team. And this stand-in has lots of time to spend with the team, which is good. And that's a powerful thing. But at the same time, if they've not got the authority to make decisions, then maybe that time is not effectively spent.
Brian Milner (05:41)
Yeah, it's almost as if they just want a warm body there. It's a placeholder. You're here as a placeholder for me because I can't be two places at once. I've heard a couple of things that people will frequently point to that a product owner needs to be successful. And there's sort of this dichotomy of these two things that are part of that. And that's the kind of empowered
Barnaby Golden (05:44)
Yeah.
Brian Milner (06:05)
product owner that is empowered to make decisions versus having the availability to actually be present with the team. it's always, it seems like that's a fracture point that sometimes causes this because you have the leaders who, hey, I need to make all the decisions, but I don't have the availability. and the people that they know have the availability, they don't want to empower to make the decisions. So they're kind of setting up their product owners to fail.
Barnaby Golden (06:35)
I think it's a classic example as well with when you want to be an agile organization, you can't just have pockets of agility. You can't just have a scrum team and say, well, that's where we'll be agile in this scrum team. The entire organization as a whole has to think in the agile mindset. And if you want to be able to adapt to change, then one of the ways you're to have to do that is you're going to have to have the decision makers close to the teams that are implementing the decisions. and so you can't have your, your cake and not eat it. If you see what I mean in terms of, you, you can't pick and choose the aspects of agile that you want. need to, as an organization, adopt the whole thing.
Brian Milner (07:17)
Yeah, that's always one thing I try to tell people as well is when you're selecting a product owner, when you're trying to decide who's the right person to be the product owner for this team, those are two of the things you have to really consider strongly is does this person have the availability to be here with the team and is this person empowered to make decisions? I've run up against leaders before that don't want to empower someone and Kind of the counterpoint I give them a lot of times is, I don't know, I think maybe in their head they're thinking this is giving someone free reign to make really long-term decisions on their own when that's not really the case. The product owner can be fully empowered, but the decisions that they're making on the spot are just a couple of week decisions. It's not a six month decision. there's gonna be sprint reviews, we're gonna display stuff and get feedback and we can course correct and all those things. So once you can kind of put it in that frame that it's really just a couple of weeks that you're empowering them to make decisions, I've had more success framing it that way. I don't know, what about you?
Barnaby Golden (08:23)
Yeah, I think that makes a huge amount of sense. The fear is loss of control. So the fear is that by empowering the product owner, they might do something which they would regard as a mistake. And they will often see themselves, because they're in a senior position, they see themselves as being responsible. So if they're responsible and the product owner makes a decision they don't like, perhaps that will reflect poorly on them. So there's a trust issue here. A good product owner is going to be consulting their stakeholders anyway. And I would think the, the senior product leadership team is part of their stakeholders. So you would hope that they were keeping them very, very up to date on their thinking that there would be no great surprises that they wouldn't do something, you know, suddenly switch from one product to a completely different product. They would always be keeping their stakeholders in the loop. And in which case. they would be building up the trust of the people around them and then you would hope that over time that they would become more empowered.
Brian Milner (09:23)
Yeah. Yeah. I just, I kind of wonder if that's maybe part of it, that the, they have a misunderstanding of kind of how the role works. You know, cause maybe they, maybe they see it as completely independent. This person is just making decisions on their own without consulting anyone. Maybe that's because that's how they do their job.
Barnaby Golden (09:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Milner (09:49)
So they may look at that as, know, this is how I would do it, so why wouldn't this person do it the same way? Well, that's not how it's designed. It's designed to be done in concert.
Barnaby Golden (09:59)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's a misunderstanding of the product owner role. And it's also a misunderstanding of why the product owner role came about, which is the reason it was there was to solve the problem of too many chefs, of too many people trying to make decisions. So there's huge value in the role. But the value in the role only comes about if that person can actually take ownership of the product. I mean, the clue's in the name, isn't it? They are the owner of the product, so therefore they can make the critical on the ground decisions, but all the time talking to their stakeholders. So, I mean, as with many things in Scrum, it's about a misunderstanding, a general misunderstanding of what the roles are within the Scrum team.
Brian Milner (10:41)
Yeah, I think they also have the fear of the wrong decision that somehow that's going to lock them in or this person's not equipped to make the right decisions that they are the knowledge expert for the product. so they should be the one making all the decisions. They have the authority. I have had a couple of cases where I've had to have difficult conversations with leaders to say, well, let's examine the decision. because you're looking at them as making the wrong decision, but is it the wrong decision? You're disconnected from the day-to-day of the team. This person is fully connected to the day-to-day, and they're more likely to have more current knowledge. And it's not always the case that just because you assume it's the wrong decision that it actually is, they may actually be right and you could be wrong.
Barnaby Golden (11:30)
And funny enough, this brings on to another topic I'm greatly interested in, which is the definition of value. And that is if there is no clear understanding within the organization of value, then decisions become arbitrary. You know, we decide to do X rather than Y in the product. Well, why did you decide to do that? Well, because it was my decision to do that. Yeah, but is there a rationale behind it? Do you have a definition of the value of X and the value of Y? and why you chose one over the other. And I think that's part of the problem as well. The kinds of organizations that don't have empowered product owners also typically don't have a definition of value.
Brian Milner (12:08)
Yeah, I completely agree. I know I've had conversations in classes where I've talked to people about how when you're prioritizing, when you're looking at things in your backlog, and we always say you prioritize according to value. Well, what's the value? What's the value of doing that thing? And so many times, I think there are organizations that can't really identify what it is. Why are we doing this thing? because it sounded cool, because it seemed like the right thing to do, it just felt right? No, we're doing it so that it does something, it creates some outcome for us. And if you can't even really define what that outcome is that you're hoping it achieves, well, isn't that the start of the problem?
Barnaby Golden (12:55)
And I think part of the root cause of that as well is the tendency for these types of organizations to do long-term planning. So what they'll often do is they'll have a roadmap for the year and they'll say in this roadmap for the year, we will achieve all these things. And then it becomes less about delivering value and more about delivering the roadmap. And I've had conversations with product owners where I've said to them, you do realize what we're doing doesn't make sense. And they say, yeah, of course they do, but I'm not being measured. on sense or the delivery of value, I'm being measured on whether or not I meet the roadmap. And that was what's important to me. You can see how all these elements are tied together within the organization.
Brian Milner (13:28)
Right. Right? Yeah. No, that's an excellent point. And you're absolutely right. So much of our metrics and some of the things that we judge teams on or performance by is basically just a volume kind of metric. And it's how much stuff is being produced. that's not value. Volume does not equal value. Value can be achieved with much less a lot of the times. And if we're This is why sometimes I'll advise product owners in classes to say, look, start up your sprint review. Maybe go back and look at some things that you've done recently and show the metric that you're using for that thing to see if it's successful. Because if the team's done something in the past three or four sprints and it's actually moved the value needle some way, it's increased customer satisfaction. added new members to our site, whatever the thing is, right? If you can show that kind of business value to it, my experience is that people stop focusing as much on volume, because that's volumes of means to the end, which is the value.
Barnaby Golden (14:40)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I've noticed as well in these types of organizations is that the value they're focused on is the incremental, is not the incremental delivery. It's usually a new feature or something like that competing. And what you often find is that the teams are not end value creators. They're often parts of... the creation of value. rather than the whole creation of value, there may be a component of it. And because of that, people will say, well, there's no direct link between you and value creation in the organization. And I find that is very problematic. And it really flies against the rationale of Scrum, which is that you want within each sprint, you want to deliver some incremental value. And if you can't measure it, if you can't... clearly define what that value is. And as you were saying, if the product owner can't stand in the sprint review and say, well, this is the value we've delivered. How does the team keep motivated? How do they keep passionate about what they're doing?
Brian Milner (15:50)
Yeah. Yeah. I think part of that is just trying to put yourselves in the shoes of your customers and try to look about what they would find as being really valuable. I don't know about you. know, well, I'm sure this applies to you as well. But we all are consumers of different software products, whether that's a business software product or even games or other things that we would use. And when they come out with new releases of those things, they come out with release notes. Now, when they come out with the release notes, are you looking at the release notes and going, wow, I'm satisfied. There's a ton of things that's in this release. Or are you looking through the individual items and going, well, I don't care about that. I don't care about that. I don't care about this. That thing, oh yeah, that's important to me. Right? That's what we do. And that's a clear picture of value over volume.
Barnaby Golden (16:49)
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that gets in the way here is a lot of it is the pride of the management team. So they often have strong self belief. They believe they make, they believe by definition, the decisions they're making are powerful decisions. So, I, it's also, think one of the reasons why a lot of organizations don't aren't data driven. You would hope they would. produce a feature and then measure whether or not that feature was a success. But that's not as common as it should be. There's very rarely business metrics tracked against deliveries. I mean, I'm generalizing here. There are many organizations do this very well. But I found there's quite a few organizations that don't really do that. And it leads to a disconnect with the customers. I mean, I can think of an example that we're... an organization I was working at where they worked on a feature delivery for six months that was on the roadmap and they got it done and they shipped it. And I think the expected users were tens of thousands and they got 16 users for this feature. And at that point there wasn't even a post-mortem. They didn't even look back and say, well, what are the lessons learned here? It was like, that's shame. Let's move on to the next item on the roadmap and hope that works instead. And it's very frustrating, especially because the feel of a good Scrum team is the connection with the customers and the feeling that you can see the passion in the engineers and in the team's eyes because they're delivering things that people want and they feel connected to it. And it means they work better and they work more effectively.
Brian Milner (18:22)
Yeah, there's no worse feeling than building something no one uses. I used to joke with the team, it's kind of like that old joke about if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around us, makes, if we build software that nobody uses, did we build it? It's not going to be used for anything. So it didn't serve any purpose.
Barnaby Golden (18:31)
You Yeah. Yeah, the way I like to think of it is that an organization should not view people's time spent in the job as important. What they should view is the value that that person has delivered as important. So sometimes people will say, know, yeah, okay, we delivered a feature that nobody really used, but you you did your job, you came in for eight hours a day during that time. And that's hard for people, I think, because they feel like this is my life. I'm investing time and energy into this. Yeah, the money is important, of course. I'm doing it as a career. But at the same time, I also want to feel reward. I want to feel like I'm achieving something. And I think with that element, you get so much better performance from the team if they feel that.
Brian Milner (19:26)
I agree. There's another thing I was thinking of here too, when we were talking about underpowered POs. Another cause I think that maybe you've encountered or seen as well, but screwy things that people do with kind of personnel. Like for example, having multiple product owners for a team, that leads to underpowered product owner or the opposite even putting a product owner on too many teams. That's going lead to underpowered POs as well. What's been your experience with that? Have you seen that? Okay.
Barnaby Golden (19:54)
I have one extreme example where there was an engineering team and the organization was an international organization. And politically within the organization, it was unacceptable to have one backlog. They had to have a backlog for the UK, a backlog for the US, a backlog for Australia, backlog for other areas of the world. And the team then had to... prioritize them kind of in this wild order. So they would say, right, we'll take number one from UK, number one from US. And so there was no coherence to what they were building at all. It was really just about satisfying people within the organization. And it kind of brings you back to that key point about why do we have product owners? Because product owners, they narrow down all the ambiguity, they narrow down all the possibilities to the thing that's most effective for the team to do next.
Brian Milner (20:47)
Yeah, I like your example because it highlights kind of what I think about those scenarios a lot of times is that they're theater. They're an act. They're not really serving the purpose, but they're making someone or helping someone to feel a sense of security about something that really they shouldn't feel. It's not there, but it has the appearance of it. It has the stage set.
Barnaby Golden (20:55)
Hmm. Yeah.
Brian Milner (21:11)
of something that looks secure, you know?
Barnaby Golden (21:13)
Yeah. mean, whenever somebody mentioned that to me, the first thing I always think about is the length of the backlog. I've worked in organizations where they could not achieve the backlog in 10 years if the team kept at it. And yet people within the organization say, yeah, I'm not worried. My feature request is on the backlog. And I'm thinking, yeah, but we're adding 10 new items a week and we're only completing eight. So in fact, you're moving further down the backlog. You're not actually getting closer to. being done. And it's, it's, it's a disconnect to gain. And this is what it's all about. Good agility, good scrum is when there's a strong connection. And if you start having that, that just doing things for appearances sake, then you lose that connection.
Brian Milner (21:55)
Yeah, and it really is kind of that fundamental flaw that we try to address throughout Scrum of transparency. When you do those kind of theater-ish things to give the appearance of something, it's the opposite of being transparent. You're trying to make it more difficult to see the reality. Yeah, it's on the backlog, so you have this false sense of security. It's on the backlog. It's never gonna get done, but... that's not transparent that it's never going to get done because it's on the backlog. Yeah, mean, part of that I put on the product owner a little bit, but that could also be that the organization demands it. Like your example with it having different backlogs across different geographies, does it serve a purpose? Well, maybe the purpose is to make someone feel better. That, hey, my thing's number one on our list, but...
Barnaby Golden (22:39)
Yeah.
Brian Milner (22:43)
That doesn't mean it's number one, that's the next thing that's going get done. It's theater.
Barnaby Golden (22:47)
And it was done exactly for that reason. I mean, it was done because they didn't want to alienate the heads of the individual countries. So they wanted to make them feel like they were going to get something even though they weren't going to get it. Which is really frustrating.
Brian Milner (22:59)
I've seen that as well with the multiple product owners. When there's a team that has multiple product owners, a lot of times that's a theater kind of thing as well, because there's a, I don't know if there's a fear that someone's gonna feel undervalued if they're not called the product owner. But it just seems like, yeah, we want all these voices to be involved with it, which again, maybe it's a misunderstanding of the product owner role. That's okay, you can have multiple voices involved, but you gotta define who's the decision maker. And if a team doesn't know that, that's gonna cause a whole host of problems.
Barnaby Golden (23:34)
Absolutely. I mean, I've been in scenarios where you would have multiple product owners. The team has been instructed by a product owner to go in a direction and then midway through a sprint, the other product owner will come along and say, yeah, that's not really what I had in mind for this sprint. Can you please switch onto this other thing? And as a, you know, I was a scrum master at the time and what I ended up doing in my sprint report was I would say, and the team lost 20 to 30 % of their capacity in switching. between what one product owner wanted and what the other product owner wanted. And that at least got a reaction because people said, well, OK, maybe that's not a good thing if we're losing output from the team. But it's a failure of the organization to make value judgments and make genuine decisions. Instead, it becomes political decisions.
Brian Milner (24:19)
Yeah. Well, I'll give you my trick for when I've encountered it as a consultant a couple of times, I usually just ask one question and it'll clear it up. I'll just go to them and whoever the leader is that's insisting that there's multiple product owners on the team, I'll just go and say, all right, what happens when, let's say it's two, what happens when those two people disagree? And usually the immediate thing I hear back is, oh, no, no, no, they get along. They usually understand.
Barnaby Golden (24:45)
You
Brian Milner (24:47)
And I always just counteract it really quickly and say, yeah, but what happens when they don't? What happens when the day comes when one of the product owners wants something that's number one and the other one wants an entirely different thing as the number one priority, who makes the call? And usually they'll point to one of them and say, push comes to shove that one. right. I mean, at that point, I just say, well, you just told me that's your product owner, right?
Barnaby Golden (25:08)
got a little bit more authority so they make the decision here.
Brian Milner (25:15)
That's the product on the other person's a stakeholder, which is fine. There's nothing devaluing about someone who's a stakeholder. They can work all day every day with that product owner.
Barnaby Golden (25:24)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that people feel if they're not in the product owner role, then they will just be another stakeholder and maybe they won't have as loud a voice. But what's so frustrating about the situation is when you see it done well, when you see it done effectively with a really good empowered product owner, a very motivated team, it's such a powerful thing. And I mean, it's why I stayed in Agile for so long is because I know how good it can be and It's very frustrating and I guess I have sympathy for organizations because maybe if they've never seen it done well, it's difficult for them to understand how just how effective it is.
Brian Milner (26:00)
Yeah, I agree. Well, this has been a great discussion. I really like this topic. It's great to focus on product owners a little bit. And hopefully, maybe there is a leader out there or somebody listening who heard some of these things and thought, you know what? Maybe it is time to give our product owner a little more power. We talk about testing things all the time, inspecting and adapting as we go. Well, leaders, try that.
Barnaby Golden (26:25)
Yeah, maybe just try it as an experiment. You know, if you're concerned, give it a go.
Brian Milner (26:27)
Yeah. Yeah. Give it a shot and see what happens. You may like it, and you may decide this is the best way to go. So yeah, I think that's a great suggestion. Well, Barnaby, this has been great. I really appreciate you making time for this. thanks for not only being on the show, but for the contributions you made in the Agile Mentors community as well.
Barnaby Golden (26:47)
Well thanks a lot Brian, I really enjoyed that, it was a great conversation.

#153: Getting Real Buy-In for Agile Transformation with Scott Dunn

Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they unpack what “buy-in” actually means and what it takes to move from surface-level support to genuine commitment in this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined once again by Scott Dunn to tackle a listener-chosen topic: how to get real buy-in for Agile initiatives, especially when shifting from a non-Scrum environment.
They explore why buy-in isn’t about enthusiastic cheerleading or deep Agile knowledge, but about leaders and teams aligning on desired outcomes. From the cost of performative support to the emotional side of change, Brian and Scott share practical strategies for securing support at all levels of the organization. Along the way, they dive into influence tactics, the importance of shared purpose, and how co-creation—not compliance—drives lasting change.
Whether you're guiding a large transformation or simply trying to influence up, this episode will help you rethink how to earn trust, build alignment, and inspire meaningful momentum.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Scott Dunn
Elements of Agile Assessment
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Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:01)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And I also have with me today someone that you probably know pretty well because he took over this podcast for about a month there. Mr. Scott Dunn is with us. Welcome in, Scott.
Scott Dunn (00:19)
Hey, thanks Brian. Yes, that podcast takeover was a lot of fun. So thank you for that opportunity. That was a hoot. Had a great time.
Brian Milner (00:25)
Absolutely. Well, I don't think I publicly thanked you for that. just ⁓ a public thanks.
Scott Dunn (00:28)
No, you didn't. No, not even an email. Not even a Slack message.
Brian Milner (00:33)
Well, very public thanks to you for doing that. Those episodes were great. I enjoyed them and it was fun to be a listener. It was fun to listen to it and just kind of hear the conversations and be a fly on the wall for those. So thanks again for doing that.
Scott Dunn (00:47)
Yeah. Yeah. It's a real treat.
Brian Milner (00:48)
We're having Scott on we kind of ran an experiment on this one because we were Scott was teaching a class for mountain goat and We thought maybe we'll just see what the class thinks so we pulled the class to see what topic do you want us to talk about and We thought we'd just go with the winner the winner that came out of that class was how to get buy-in How do you get buy-in in a? move from a non-scrum place to a Scrum kind of way of working. How do you get buy-in in the organization and buy-in from others? So when I was thinking about this as a topic, I think the first thing that popped in my head Scott about this was What do we mean by buy-in? So what does that mean to you?
Scott Dunn (01:33)
Right. So sometimes what I'm hearing is people saying like, buy in, you know, they, I would hear a common complaint, like they don't get it. They don't understand. don't, for me, buy in isn't that they need to understand agile or scrum and these types of things and how it works. Buy in is they get, they give their support kind of regardless. So my favorite example of that is walking into, this is a multi vendor effort we're doing on a Salesforce implementation. And we'd asked for the VP of the whole thing to come down and say some words before we had our first retrospective. You can imagine it's going to be kind of heated with different vendors trying to make each other look bad or whatever. And he'd said, yes. So we're coming down into this, you know, big high stakes meeting. And I just remember him saying, you know, I'm so excited to be doing this for you all. It's great. And he kind of falls in and looks at me says, what am I doing again? Cause he didn't, he didn't know, he didn't know what a retrospective was. He just knew he was asked to come and do something around that. And to me, Brian,
Brian Milner (02:21)
Ha
Scott Dunn (02:28)
That's fine. He's showing up. He's letting everyone know this way of working is important. It's important to me. It's important to success. And he probably couldn't tell you any of the meetings or artifacts or anything in scrum, right? But that's still what we need.
Brian Milner (02:39)
So. Yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it because I think a lot of people sometimes think of buy-in, like everyone's clapping and waving scrum flags around and all that stuff. And I don't think that's really buy-in. I think it's just the willingness to honestly try it, to give it a shot and be open about what would work and what doesn't work. The opposite of that is the resistance, know, of just being resistant to it and saying, I'm gonna put up hurdles and walls in the way of this being successful. That's, think, what needs to be avoided.
Scott Dunn (03:18)
Right, right. think that some of what was helped is to give them the, for me, the mindset of their buy-in isn't about doing things right. They're not saying, we're really wanted. We really want a new process. We were getting asked to come in because they're not getting the results they want. So buy-in for me from their perspective is how to help get the results that they're looking for. And they'll support us to get those results. So I don't talk to them about some of the aspects of an empirical process or any of that. I sort of say, you in order to get things faster or in order to improve quality, right? And that's how they get behind that. I think sometimes people are preaching some of the process part, even if they could understand that's not really what they're about. But I think they even struggle to understand what we're talking about. So yeah, it's hard for them to get behind and support us when they're not tracking. They simply know there's a pain point we're having. Can we talk about that and how to get what we need and what do you need from me to get that? Great. But I think we We can do ourselves a favor by helping point to the same target, make sure we're aligned with the same target they want. And maybe they'll give us more support if they feel like, yeah, you're tracking with me. I want to come in talk about, you know, more collaboration. Like we already have enough meetings. That's what, that's what I heard. Right. But I'll come and talk about faster time to market. Well, yeah, now they're interested in talking about what they need to do, you know, that I'm asking them to get behind that. I think that's fair.
Brian Milner (04:28)
Right. Yeah, I think there's also an element there, because I know we're both kind of fans of and users of kind of the path to agility framework from our friend David Hawks. And I love the part of that that's trying to establish the motivation, the purpose from the outset to try to say, What's the thing we hope to get out of this? And I think that's really crucial in getting buy-in that you can't just tell people, hey, we're gonna be a Scrum organization now. Why? Because I tell you that's what we're gonna do, because we're gonna check off the box and say that we're now Scrum. That's not motivating to anyone. if I can say, no, we're gonna... go through this change because here's the end result. Here's what we're trying to get to. Here's what we think will be better. If I can lay that out, then I've got a purpose behind it. And now I have motivation to go forward with this difficult change and learning what's expected of me and all that stuff. But if that's not done, I feel like that's a crucial misstep in that.
Scott Dunn (05:44)
Yeah, I wanted to add to that, that that point about the clarity of the goals is really something that has sticking power. And we had a client, I came and was working with him this year that he had remembered from the last year as the CTO. He's remembering from last year that we had done that same exercise or what are the goals that leadership has. And he remembered it was quality and customer satisfaction. That had been over a year since we had done that, but that not only stuck with him, but we came back to the group and kind of had a fun poll. Like, everyone remember? They remembered. And so every time we're having a decision we're trying to make about should it be this way or that way on the process, the different, were doing the race, the matrix work, et cetera, people kept coming back to, well, is that going to help us in terms of quality? Is that going to help us in terms of customer staff? We're not going into the nuts and bolts of Scrum or these other approaches. It's simply what's the business goal. will that help us hit the goal? And when the leader hears you using their language that they get, like that's my goal, they're feeling like, okay, whatever you need to do, sounds like you understand what I'm after, right? It's really powerful. But I like that you mentioned that, because when we go through that exercise, always super clear, we don't get confused. Times when we lead with, especially on the executives trying to lead with explaining Scrum, you can tell sometimes they're not really tracking or they're following along, okay, so what's the point?
Brian Milner (06:59)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (06:59)
Yeah, you start off with what's their goals. They're like, great, this is exactly what I want to talk about. And then, Hey, you're not doing the things you need to do to hit those goals. Oh, okay. What are they? I mean, I remember one time a couple of years back, literally when the coach was presenting the results of that assessment towards their goals, they cut them off in the middle of his presentation. Just says, well, why, why is it, you why is that red? Why are we not hitting the goal? What do need to do? And they just started solving the problem right then he couldn't even finish his presentation. Talk about getting support. And he had been there six years saying,
Brian Milner (07:23)
Wow.
Scott Dunn (07:27)
Scott, they're not gonna buy into doing this transformation team and the scrum work. He couldn't even finish, I think, a couple of slides and they gave him everything he wanted, right? Powerful, powerful.
Brian Milner (07:36)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good point. I also think one of the reasons that there's, you know, and that kind of parallels it. One of the reasons there's a lack of buy-in in general is that it's sort of targeted to just one area. You know, like this is a team thing. The teams are going to get trained, but the leaders have no idea really what's going on. They're kind of separated off from this. And I think that's a big part of the problem as well is you get buy-in when they see the leaders have bought in. So are the leaders bought in? Are the leaders on board with this? If they're not, then the rest of the group isn't going to be bought in either.
Scott Dunn (08:18)
People are smart. They're watching which way the wind's blowing. to be honest, Brian, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I tell people, I don't even care if they genuinely believe in that or not. If they're getting behind it because that's the way the politics are going, hey, they're getting out of the way. We're getting things done. Fine by me. Right. So partly when we're getting that by now, so make sure leaders, are you communicating this clearly? Because some of your people are either not on board or they're kind of waiting to see, this a fad or is this going to blow over? I need you to really communicate that clearly, et cetera, to see if people are get on board with that or not. Or, and on the other side, if I feel like some of these folks are not on board and I do feel like I have leadership support, I need to escalate that pretty quickly and make sure you understand, know, because they might get mad at you or me for talking about scrum and changing things. I'm like, I didn't knock down the door and come in myself. I was asked to come in here by someone who has authority. So maybe you need to clarify that with them, whether we're doing this or not. But don't get mad at me.
Brian Milner (09:04)
Right.
Scott Dunn (09:11)
So I will check them on that and clarify with the leadership to say, let's make sure your people are in alignment as well. If we do have that buy-in for sure.
Brian Milner (09:20)
Yeah. I saw another kind of quote about this that really got my brain working a little bit. Cause it was talking about the cost of fake buy-in and it was, it was kind of saying, you know, performative buy-in might actually, you know, it was asking the question, is performative buy-in worse than just outright resistance? And I don't know. Let me ask you that. What do you think? Do you think performative buy-in is worse than just someone who's resistant?
Scott Dunn (09:28)
Interesting. Yeah. As someone that just gave an example of performative buy-in. So if you would ask me a week ago, I might have gave a different answer, but someone was talking about this is a wildly different aspect of this, but you did ask me to join. So you get what you get. ⁓ They're talking about the difference of discrimination in the US versus South Africa. And they said, what's the difference? And they said in South Africa, it was blatant. no, you're a person of color. You cannot buy property here. That's how it is. Here, it's more like
Brian Milner (09:59)
You
Scott Dunn (10:14)
Yeah, we're looking at your loan application and I don't know if you can buy in this way. So it's subtle. And this person actually said, I'll take the outright blatant discrimination of South Africa, where at least you know what the issue is versus the subtle one. So maybe to that point with what you're saying, maybe it is better to have outright resistance and then say, well, at least I know who's on board or not. Rather than the person says they're on board, but every time they're in a meeting, they come out meeting and we don't get the decisions made we need. That's funny.
Brian Milner (10:39)
Yeah. Yeah. When I read this and started to think about it, I kind of had that same conclusion that like when someone's being outright resistant, yeah, it's an obstacle, but it's honest. And, you know, I'd rather have the honesty because they're trying to, they're still acting their way because they have a belief that their way is the right way to do it. And so they're throwing up a resistance because they're honestly resistant to it. Whereas someone who just sort of nods in meetings and claps along and, know, oh yeah, sure, great. But then they're kind of in the quiet, you know, behind the scenes and the hallway conversations. That's insidious. That's something that I can't really deal with. And it's like, you know, let's have the discussion. Let's talk about it. And, you know, if you win, then great. Why not have the courage to just have the conversation and see which idea wins?
Scott Dunn (11:39)
Right. on that note, think for everyone's sake, Brian, if we could be honest for a moment, not that we haven't been honest in these other podcasts, but in this, in this moment, we're really going to be honest. Would you, would, do you feel at times that our culture, our company cultures actually teach people to do just what you said to not be honest, but then like be like, you know, politically savvy, don't say what you really think, but then you're going to kind of be subversive and undermine that thing. And I've dealt with that so many times, I'll show up to a meeting like, I would have swore we were on board. had that one-on-one and now you're not saying in the meeting that you go on board with that. So people might've gotten coached. It's actually not safe to be honest and have good clear spirited debate because there's a price to pay if they do that. And they maybe 10 years in corporate can kind of teach you don't be honest or they're trying to read the tea leaves about what you think it's going to be. And so, yeah, I definitely would rather take it. Maybe it's part of the mindset of trying to really check, you know, where people are at. If I go back to my early days of coaching, those one-on-ones of having the level of honesty to really know where people are at. That was, think, some of the power. And I think some of that came from genuinely caring about the people, wanting them to succeed, wanting them win, even if it wasn't going to be at this company because of all the change or whatever. I did feel people felt like I really was open and honest with them and transparent and had their back. I would hear some real things about how they really felt because they didn't feel like there was a payback for that. And that allowed me to actually say, well, you know what, if you're really not on board, let's see what we can do as far as another opportunity. Maybe it's a positional switch we can do or whatever that was. Because I mean, this did affect people's jobs in some ways. And I think maybe if I don't have those one-on-ones, they're probably just going to give lip service because they don't know if anyone there really has their back in a turbulent time of change. AI is a great example of that, right? Hey, we want to move forward with AI. Well, what's the impact of my job if we do? But no one's really talking about that, right? It's all positive and all that. So I think people are trying to read that too. But you bring up a good point. I think I would take the direct as long as they feel like they can safely be open and honest.
Brian Milner (13:31)
Yeah. Yeah, well, even that question, right? What effect is AI gonna have on my job? And the honest answer I think that someone has to give right now is, don't know. I feel like I understand what it is today, but I don't know that that's gonna be the same way tomorrow because this technology changes so fast, so I can't promise anything. But here's what it is today and this is the paradigm we're trying to live in. So I think that there's an honesty component there that you've got a mirror to say, hey, I'm going to be honest with you. You be honest with me about this. And we'll be upfront with each other as we make our way through this. yeah, so yeah, think that kind of being honest and taking that approach, I think, is the right way to go. I also think that being kind of a reverting back before you get into things like, here's what a Scrum Master is, here's what a product owner is. You've got to start with the basics and mindset kind of culture things. You have to start with transparency, inspection, adaptation. That's really the way to go. And if we buy into those sorts of things initially, then we can start to say, well, here's a practice that supports that. Now you understand why we're doing this practice because it does this thing. Without it, it's just sort of one of those things of do as I tell you, you know, and that doesn't get buy-in. We've got to see the why behind it.
Scott Dunn (14:48)
Yes. Yeah, I think so. That's a great point. I was just making a note because sometimes we come in about agile. Some of the folks when I'm sharing this, it's maybe is new to them that I try to really present it. I want what you want. So even down to the words and then I kind of map back to that. So for example, if if we have quality problems now, I might believe in say an agile practice like mob programming, but I don't want to bring up like, hey, we should try mobbing. because it's cool or because you know, whatever, they don't care about that. But oh, they have a quality concern. Hey, boss, I've been thinking about, you know, these quality issues. I got an idea that I think it really could help with quality. But if I was to ask you, Brian, is is Bobby gonna, does Bobby help with quality? Does Bobby help me with, you know, cross training and tearing down knowledge silos and sharing learning? And I think, well, it does a lot of things, I pitch it towards what management wants. So agile as a means to an end. So I want what you want. And if I can't get that clarity that I want what you want, I need to be listening more because if I feel like I come to them talking, I've seen from my own experience, I come talking about better collaboration. That's not what's on their mind. I'm literally losing credit with them because they're like, why are you bringing this up? Like this isn't even our concern right now. Right. So I'm losing trust. I'm losing political capital. So I listen intently what their concerns are, the things I think that are important or that can get that. Then I'm going to pitch it. I'm going to pitch it in that language even like, you know, that what these are the things that would help on. I want what you want.
Brian Milner (16:00)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (16:18)
the sport, I'll even research stuff to find out. So maybe I gave an example recently, when I was a manager for a web development, team that they wanted bigger monitors, of course, and I couldn't get approval for the bigger monitors. so I went and researched, I knew that always we had pressure to deliver more. I researched until I found somewhere someone had to study the show that larger monitors help productivity. And then I brought that to him and like, Hey, I'm looking for ways to improve the team productivity. I think I found something. What is it Scott?
Brian Milner (16:30)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Dunn (16:46)
Well, larger monitors, you can tell us, Smollick, really? You've been asking for this for months. I said, no, there's a study that proves it. Now he approved it right then. But partly I wonder, Brian, is I was also giving him air cover for when he gets flack from the other departments. Why does Scott's team get the special monitors? Well, it improves productivity. And right. He's got a reason now. Otherwise, it looks like maybe he's just playing favorites or something else. Right. We're all watching costs. So I will do the research to say, hey, I want what you want. I'll go and I'll go and dig it up.
Brian Milner (17:04)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (17:13)
Someone somewhere must've said it's gonna help. So I'll bring that to them. It ⁓ worked.
Brian Milner (17:17)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. you're giving him the why behind it. You're telling him, hey, here's something that's in. It's the old outcome argument that the outcome from having larger monitors is this, that we have this productivity. I know you want greater productivity, so here's a means to do that. And I think that's kind of the way that this, you in a nutshell, what we're trying to say here is, you know, I can't go into a company, your boss comes into your company tomorrow and says, hey everyone, we're switching to pens that write in green ink, because we're a green ink company. We just, we want to be known as the green ink company from now on, because it's better. So everyone, make sure you switch to green ink. I mean, they do it. But there's a difference between compliance and real commitment. ⁓ And that's the difference, I think, is, all right, you wanted to switch to green ink, but why? What's the point behind it? I'll do it, but I'll be committed to it if you tell me, well, studies show that when people read in green ink. I mean, that kind of thing can make an impact. But otherwise, it's like you're
Scott Dunn (18:08)
Yes. ⁓ Absolutely.
Brian Milner (18:31)
It's almost like an insult to the intelligence of someone, you know, to say, we're going to do this crazy new thing called a standup, you know, or daily scrum or whatever. And well, why are we doing that? I don't know. Cause right. That they tell us that's what we're supposed to do. Well, we have to stand up for a meeting. Why are we standing up? Why aren't we just sitting down? It's more comfortable. I don't know, but that's what you do in a daily scrum is you stand up. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's that kind of a thing that I think.
Scott Dunn (18:34)
yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
Brian Milner (18:58)
if you don't lay the groundwork of here's why, then they're gonna just react with the way that you would switch to green ink. ⁓ Scott Dunn (19:05) I love that example. love that. And we've all been there, right? When someone says, why would we do this? I'm like, I actually don't know. It's a terrible feeling. I don't know. We go through all this effort to do just that. And you mentioned that compliance, compliance will never have their heart and soul and energy into this. So think that that's a big deal for them as well. When leaders are, we had something happen where it's a large financial institution and their data engineering group.
Brian Milner (19:11)
You're right. Yeah.
Scott Dunn (19:33)
You're like, yeah, AI is not really, you know, for us, not important to us. Which is interesting, right? Then the next week, like that, the head of that group, their boss's boss says, we need to be using, AI. Well, guess who makes it announced at the very next week. We need to get going with AI, So some of this is like, look, if they're pushing those things, we also want to make sure that they're in a position to look good for their bosses, those types of things. Right? So one, you know, giving them air cover, but two, listen to the winds of those things. If we make them successful, I mean, this is old school, right? Make your boss look good. My goodness. If they feel like that's happening, then you're going to get a lot more support. And this is a good example of a radical change for a whole data engineering team, just because the boss's boss says so. So now we're going to do it. I think looking for even those opportunities and following through on what that might be bringing them ideas that make them look good and generating that as well. I love the green ink one. just now it makes me want to be that we're the green ink company. You're we're going to be known for this.
Brian Milner (20:23)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (20:29)
⁓ But why?
Brian Milner (20:30)
Yeah. I think it's also kind of important that you acknowledge that there is an emotional impact here. And this gets into kind of the idea of the whole Satir model of change and that kind of thing. And so I think maybe part of the equation of getting buy-in is really comprehending and understanding that you're not going to get buy-in right away. ⁓
Scott Dunn (20:56)
Hmm.
Brian Milner (20:57)
you know, there's going to be chaos and resistance. There's going to be a point where people are going to be resistant to it. And if you do the rest of it well, then that they'll turn that corner. But what makes them turn that corner is, is that they're connected to the purpose behind it. And so if you're, if you're going to try to implement this, if you're to try to do a change, and just expect it's gonna be, know, hunky dory from day one, you're fooling yourself. Humans don't take to change well. It's got an emotional aspect to it. I love the way David Hawks used to always say this. You know, I knew how to be a hero the old way, and I have no idea how to be a hero in this new thing. So I don't feel comfortable with this change because I don't know how to win.
Scott Dunn (21:41)
So true.
Brian Milner (21:47)
And I think that is a really accurate reflection of that emotional kind of impact of it. Everyone wants to do their job well and be seen as a smart person at work and everything else. And I knew how to do that before, but now I don't know how. And so I'm afraid I'm gonna look bad.
Scott Dunn (22:02)
Right? And I think that lack of awareness or knowledge is some of the things that we're asking them to do. Like you said, uncomfortable or new doesn't feel good. And we kind of think that, oh, if I don't feel good, this must be bad. It's just uncomfortable. But I think I love what you're saying. We can map it out and say, by the way, it's going to look like this as we go through that. And that hero part, a lot of our management, like 90 % of the management is going to be in that, you what we call expert or achiever. Like they're the smartest ones in the room, or they're ones that coordinate everything and they know who to talk to. you're trying to introduce something to someone who thinks they already know all the things. So how we're presenting that to them, including the fact that they're human too, right? They're gonna feel some things and maybe uncomfortable. It wouldn't hurt to explain a bit more, even if they're not gonna necessarily admit it, but like, hey, it's gonna feel different. The people might push back on this. So even when you're first beginning that, it reminded me of how I just knew I'd need to ask my boss like five times. Look, lots of people are asking him for stuff. They're partly just going by the simplest way of Who keeps coming to my office the most? And maybe on time five, like, wow, Scott, this sounds like a problem. Well, yeah, I've been here five times. Because they're kind of waiting, like, is it really a problem or do you just come in once or twice? So repeating that and then maybe framing it to say, and doing the change looks like this and that, giving them information so they don't have to admit that they don't know if they're priding themselves on knowing all the things. I really think that's a great addition to that. The Satir change model, knowing that it's going to get uncomfortable. I've seen execs jettison this just because people are bothered or upset or they're uncomfortable. So therefore this must be a bad idea. So I think we can do ourselves a favor by explaining a little bit like it's going to look like this moving forward as far as their support. Some people may not like it and here's why, but here's how I would answer those people. Like you're literally feeding them the responses. And I'll also do the get behind the expert and say, well, this is, this is what Harvard business review says, or this is what this expert says. You might be surprised because Again, back to them being experts, if you ask them what they think they know about Agile, I might have mentioned before, they score themselves on average about 8.5 out of 10. But their people would score them about 4.5 out of 10, right? It was what I've seen when I did the study, the surveys. So they think they know, so they're not gonna admit they don't know, but go ahead and give them the information they wish. If you know they don't know, I like what you're saying, kind of shrink the chain so they can understand, it's gonna look like this and feel like this. People might ask this way. But here's how I'd respond to them. know, remember this is where, you know, 90 % of the companies are doing X, Y, and Z. So they have backing. They can answer to the people. We kind of set them up for success. Otherwise that satiric change curve is going to hit them. They won't have answers. That feels really awkward. This must be a bad idea. And they're going to undo what you just asked for. Right. I've seen that happen. You just got approval and then a week or two later it got put on hold or undone.
Brian Milner (24:44)
Yeah, no, I agree. one of the areas, one of the other kind of things that I found in thinking about this in advance was a quote that was from the five dysfunctions of a team book that we all talk about quite a bit. But there's a quote from that that says, people don't weigh in, they won't buy in. And I love that. And I thought, you know, that really is a good point that there, it's not about
Scott Dunn (25:00)
Woo!
Brian Milner (25:08)
people need to feel like they're co-creating with you. And to do that, you need to be able to listen to them. If they don't feel like they have a voice, mean, put yourself in their shoes. If you felt like there was a big change happening and you had no say in it, that would feel pretty oppressive. But if they felt like they're building the change with you, then I think then that's what kind of can turn people around and say, no, I have a say in this, I'm a part of this. and I get to shape a little bit about what this is going to look like. They're going to shape it a lot. I mean, that's part of just the Azure way of working is that, hey, we're going to individualize this for this company, for this team. It has to fit here. And the more we can help people see, no, you're a co-creator in this. You're not just being told, but you're going to shape this with us.
Scott Dunn (25:54)
Right? Even with the leadership, I mean, it's easy. think everyone listening would agree. If you look at the common leaders, that's, even the, let's say director level and above personality types, right? For, for disc, it's going to be a high D for a strange pattern would be like command, um, computing values framework. They're going to be blue, get results, make it happen. But we need it to be, we need to be their decision for some of these folks. So when I would come to one of my bosses and say, I think we should do X every time he'd say like, yeah, let me think about. I'll get back to you. I kept thinking like, I don't understand because these are my people. I thought you trusted me. I realized, it has to be his decision. So part of what you're saying is invite him into the solution. So then I'd say, hey, we've got three options, good, better, best. What do you think we should do? Or I'd say, hey, I've done all the research, option A looks great, option B looks terrible. What do you think we should do? I mean, I try to simplify it. I tried to make it obvious, but I couldn't tell him I need to do X or we need this from you. It needed to be his input and to decide.
Brian Milner (26:44)
Right.
Scott Dunn (26:51)
once I framed it that way, he agreed every single time. I simply frame it, put it right in front of him so it's kind of an obvious decision, but I had to let him have that voice to decide. I'm really glad you brought that up. That one literally went from zero to 100 % if I changed my approach of how I had addressed it to let him be the one to decide and weigh in on that. Or even pitch it as a sales. Hey, I think it'd be great to move forward. What would that look like to you? Well, now he's talking about moving that change forward. without even realizing it, because you said to move forward, what would we need to do? And now he is co-creating, but it's already a yes, right? But by default, a little bit of sales, a little bit of sales effort there.
Brian Milner (27:24)
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a good example. And that's a good example, I think for like the scrum masters listening and other people out here that are, feel like, you know, I'm not the leader in the organization. I'm not way up here and I can't, you know, have my decisions trickle down to other people, but, you know, kind of the, influencing up kind of mentality there. Yeah. It might sound like a little bit of a trick, but you know, if you can help. the boss co-create with you, right? Here's the problem. I've done some research. Here's some solutions. How would this look for you? Or what do you think of these options? Which one do you think sounds best? If I'm a boss and someone comes to me and says that I've researched this, here's the solutions that are possible. Which one do you think sounds best? That's really a service to me because you've just done a lot of work for me and I know that I'm doing my job by making the decision, but you've presented it and now I don't have to do anything but make the call. Yeah.
Scott Dunn (28:24)
Yeah, yeah. Simplify the decision-making or frame the decision-making is, think we might actually be kind of, I don't want to say teasing. I just hear some feedback from people at times like, leadership's was like, bright, shiny squirrel, right? And they get frustrated. But in some ways I'm thinking, well, at least someone in the org is decisive. I'll take that. But we can help them leverage that decisive trait they have.
Brian Milner (28:43)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (28:48)
But for the good, instead of these random crazy things, you know, when the leader's like, I love Agile, I can change my mind all the time. We can, we can, we can guide them to better decision-making too. I love the influence both up and down what you're saying the Scrum Master can do. I think we miss, that we all have that ability to try to influence decision-making and shape some of this. Maybe there's more agency than we realized, I think for some of these folks, Scrum Masters, product owners, cetera, that you might be surprised. Like run an experiment, try some of these things out that we're talking about and see for yourself. I mean, all these personality types are different and your orgs are different. I totally understand that. Do something, inspect and adapt and see what you get. might, cause once you strike gold, you're like, you know, you're set on getting influence and buy-in from folks. It's really powerful network. Cause we don't need to give you a title or change the org chart in order to have results happen with you involved if you're that kind of a person. And I think you can really write your ticket in your career if you're able to do that soft skill of influence and buy-in up and down. It's great.
Brian Milner (29:43)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, I hope that for at least the people that were in your class, this is is hit it right on the nail on the head for what it is they were they were thinking this would be about. But I think this is good. I think this is a good conversation and it's important, I think at all levels, because there's you know, this this affects us whether we're doing a massive transformation in an organization or
Scott Dunn (29:51)
Yeah.
Brian Milner (30:06)
We're just trying to influence up a tiny bit, you know, the food chain.
Scott Dunn (30:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I hope that for the folks who were in that class, you better let us know if that was it. If anyone else is interested in other things, absolutely. We love hearing what your what those topics would be and bring on the right people. I will say that Brian, you brought in so many different voices. It's really, really great. So again, influence us. You can practice what we're talking about by putting those ideas up there. Other folks that we'd love to hear, because I love the the slated speakers you brought in. Brian's been really awesome. Thanks for this opportunity.
Brian Milner (30:34)
Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for coming on again, Scott.

#152: The Five Pillars of Real Agile Improvement with Mike Cohn

Join Brian and Mike Cohn as they unpack the five essential pillars that take Agile from “just the motions” to meaningful, measurable impact. Plus, get a behind-the-scenes look at their revamped course built for real team transformation.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by longtime collaborator and Agile thought leader Mike Cohn for a deep dive into what really makes Agile stick.
They explore the five foundational pillars—mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team—and share stories of what happens when teams get them wrong (like obsessing over story point math or demoing a copyright update in a sprint review). Along the way, they introduce the newly available Working on a Scrum Team public course and explain why it’s designed for entire teams, not just isolated roles.
Whether you're new to Agile or knee-deep in transformation, this episode will help you rethink how to build an Agile approach that actually works.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Mike Cohn
#80: From Struggling to Success: Reviving Agile Teams with Mike Cohn
Scrum Team Roles and Responsibilities
Working on a Scrum Team Course
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in, Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm with you, as always, Brian Milner. And today, I have the one and only Mike Cohn back with us. Welcome in, Mike.
Mike (00:12)
Thanks, Brian. Good to be here.
Brian Milner (00:14)
Always happy to have Mike on the show and really appreciate Mike making time to come on. Wanted to have Mike on because there's some things Mike's been talking about recently that are really interesting and people have been asking a little bit about this and I thought maybe it'd be just a good opportunity to talk through some of the stuff that Mike's been writing about. I know you spent, Mike, a lot of time helping teams to not just do Agile but to really get solid results from it. to see impact from it. And I know the topic you've been talking about recently is sort of these five pillars of supporting real agile improvements, the mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team. So I thought maybe we could just dig in and drive through those and maybe learn a little bit about those as we go. Obviously also to talk a little bit about the exciting new course that's being launched here, the working on a Scrum team course, because I know that was originally just for private classes, right? And now it's being open to the public.
Mike (01:23)
Yeah, we've done working on a Scrum team as a private class for probably 20 plus years. It's been kind of our main offering to private clients. But we're hearing from a lot of people that they have one team and they can't really get a private class approved with the budget and such. So what we're doing is going ahead and making that course available as a public course. So two people from your company, five people from another company all in the same class the way we've done our certified courses for decades. And so we're going to start offering this as a public course. And the exciting thing there is that it's really meant to be a team-based class, where things like Scrum Master training, great class, but it's really meant for the Scrum Master, right? And working on a Scrum team is really designed, and you and I helped you and I design this course together, but it's designed to be something that is a whole team training, right? So good for anybody on a team.
Brian Milner (02:16)
Yeah, yeah, it's been really great teaching those in the private classes and I'm excited to think about the public being able to come in and take that now. Let's talk a little bit about these pillars and, I think people are gonna be really intrigued by the concept here. The first one is mindset, I think, and just wanna start there and say, what does it actually mean to... think Agile and what is the found, why is that kind of the foundation for successful transformations?
Mike (02:43)
Remember the kind of the early days of agile and there was a lot of conversation about could you be agile without understanding the principles, right? If you just did the practices, were you agile? Other people were saying, no, you have to start with the principles, right? And so do you start with principles? Do you start with practices? And I remember these early debates and they often devolved into a discussion of the karate kid movie, right? Remember that one, right? And, you know, can you just wax on?
Brian Milner (03:12)
Ha
Mike (03:12)
for long enough, just do the practices. And then all of a sudden, your karate instructor or your agile coach is, OK, you're agile. And it's like, wait, all I know how to do is wax a car, right? And so there were these discussions about practices versus principles. And I was kind of always on the side where you better understand the principles to do this. Just knowing the practices, waxing on all day, is kind of just going through the motions. And so you have to understand the principles. And the idea that I wanted was that if a team truly understood all of the principles underneath Agile, I don't just mean just the manifesto, but all the principles that are there from Lean, from Kanban, from everything, that if you really understood those, you'd kind of invent the practices, right? You do those and you go eventually to go, hey, we should probably meet every day. Or hey, if we tested first, that might be a really good thing.
Brian Milner (03:57)
Yeah.
Mike (04:05)
So you'd invent the practices if you really had that type of agile mindset. And so for me, when we're working with organizations to get them truly agile, and I don't mean like more agile than less agile, but agile in a way that's going to stick, you got to change mindsets, right? You've got to do more than just the wax on. So people have to get the mindset.
Brian Milner (04:27)
Yeah, I love that. I know that I've experienced some things in the course of working with people that's it's sort of like you, if you're not on the same page with the principles, then you start to talk through the practices and you run up against a problem. And really what you find out the core of it was, well, we weren't aligned on really the principle behind this. So why would I want the practices then, right? ⁓
Mike (04:49)
Yeah. Well, that's where you also end up then with a lot of team debates about things, right? Because you're arguing about the practice. if you'll say you and I are arguing about the benefit of some practice, if we agree on the principle, we might just have different views on it. But deep down, we'll probably agree on some practice, or we might find an alternative one. But if you don't agree on the principles, you end up with a lot more of these kind of annoying. mean, team debates are great. I mean, I love.
Brian Milner (04:54)
Yeah.
Mike (05:12)
you know, having a team debate, arguing stuff like that, but not about pointless things, right? And not without some sort of foundation. They just kind of get in the way. It's just frustrating for everybody.
Brian Milner (05:21)
Yeah. Well, I'm kind of curious, what kind of signs or signals do you think teams should look out for to kind of clue in and let them know that what might actually be going on here is more of a mindset issue?
Mike (05:36)
think sometimes it's when you hear the appeal to authority, right? Somebody says, you know, well, we got to do it this way because the scrum guide says, right? Or the one that annoys me is we have to do it this way because Mike Cohn says, ⁓ you know, that was like, no, I, somewhere else also said, think, right? Don't just, you know, don't just, you know, blindly do story points or something. Cause I say they're a good thing. I want you to think too.
Brian Milner (05:50)
You You
Mike (06:01)
And so I think that kind of appeal to authority when teams are debating things. It's where we also see teams who think they're agile because they do a set of practices. We use a particular agile tool, so we must be agile. We do daily meetings. We must be agile. And those are not the things that make you agile. Those are artifacts of being agile. If you're agile, you're going to meet a lot. You're not going meet a lot, but you're going to talk a lot. Um, and so those are the artifacts of behaving in an agile way. And so I want to understand why we're doing those things. So I look for those kind of appeals to authority. Um, you know, emphasis on that type of stuff in an argument talking about how this is the right way saying there's only one right way to do something.
Brian Milner (06:49)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. How does working on the Scrum team deal with this? How does that address it?
Mike (06:55)
Well, one of the things we do, it was actually one of my favorite exercises. We do this exercise at the start of the class where we ask people to kind of map out how the organization talks about certain adsel principles and then how does the organization behave. And so for example, if a company says, people are our greatest asset, and then they treat people like dirt, we've got this kind of problem between what we say and what we do. And so I like to kind of map this out. And so we do this with the principles in the Agile Manifesto. And once we map those out and we start to see things that we say we value, but we don't behave that way, really helps us understand if we've really embraced that mindset. Or are we just doing things because an Agile coach told us to, or a boss told us to, or we did it that way in our prior company. Those are all bad reasons to do something.
Brian Milner (07:48) Y
eah. So this is great. So I agree. The mindset's really foundational. And there is this symbiotic relationship between mindset and practices, which came first and which comes first, as we talked about. I know a lot of teams get stuck doing Agile, though, in really only name only. So when we talk about practices, what makes the difference between going through the motions?
Mike (08:00)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (08:11)
and actually doing things that work.
Mike (08:13)
Well, practices is kind of our second pillar, right? You have to have the mindset, right? But you also have to have the practices that come from having that mindset. so, again, I try to think of that team on a desert island, right? And they're isolated from the world. They've never talked to anybody, but they have an agile mindset. What practices are they going to invent, right? And I think those are kind of the core practices. We see a lot of problems with as an example, teams that misunderstand sprint planning. And I know when I first started teaching about sprint planning, I'd have a slide up there to have a picture of a sprint backlog. And the sprint backlog listed tasks like code this, design this, test this. And then there were estimates next to code this. It's going to take four hours testing. It's going to take three. And so we were able see all these numbers and think the point of a sprint planning was these numbers. And Even in the early days of this, I was always saying, no, it's not about those numbers. It's about deciding what product backlog items you can pick. if taking a, I don't even want to call it an estimate, but taking a wild guess about, it probably can take four hours to code. If that helps you decide how many backlog items you can commit to, great, put those numbers up there. But it was never about the numbers. And it's one of the most common problems that I see with teams in sprint planning is they get obsessed with How many hours did we bring in? How many points did we bring in? And I remember one team I worked with where we did sprint planning. Having those estimates were helpful for them on their sprint back. They were helping. And we finished the meeting. And we're using Google Sheets in a meeting to do this. We've got a row with the estimates in there. And as we start to wind down the meeting, I deleted that column that they'd spent so much time talking about. They're all kind of pissed off at me. Why'd you delete that? We spent all this time talking about it. I said, because we got the benefit, right? You got the benefit of those numbers. The benefit isn't a week from now remembering that you said five hours, because it's going to take what it takes. The benefit was the discussion that it led to of can we take more or are we already full? So I see teams get obsessed with that. This is one example, but that's one of the problems with sprint planning as a practice.
Brian Milner (10:25)
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. And that's one of the things I know I've talked about with people going through the course is sort of understanding the purpose behind the things. Just going back to, know, harkening back to what you said about, don't just do it because someone told you, you know, understand why the purpose behind it. And, know, otherwise we, I'm sure we've all had that experience before where someone just tells you to do something and says, you know, why? Cause I told you so, you know, that, that doesn't, that's not very convincing.
Mike (10:52)
Thanks, Mom.
Brian Milner (10:53)
Right, right, thanks mom. Yeah, not very convincing, but it's much more convincing when they can tell you, well, no, you do this because this is what we're trying to do. And I think you're right, that makes all the difference there. ⁓
Mike (11:05)
It just, don't know anybody that responds well to being told what to do, right? My instant reaction is no, right? mean, you it could be, you know, a really, you it could be a really good thing. Eat more vegetables, you spend more time outside. No, right? Don't tell me what to do. So.
Brian Milner (11:09)
Right. Right. Yeah. It's almost like our default response is no until you convince me. Are there other common practices? We talked about sprint planning. Are there other kind of practices you see teams struggle with?
Mike (11:28)
Yeah, yeah, for a lot of people. think a huge one is product backlog refinement. I don't know what a better word would be than refinement. refinement is about making the backlog better. It's not about making it perfect. And I see teams that get stuck on backlog refinement and feel like they have to resolve every open issue, that everything has to be tiny and answered and buttoned up before we can start a sprint. And that's not the case. For me, the goal in refinement is to make sure things are small enough and sufficiently well understood. I don't want to bring in a backlog that's bigger than my velocity. If our velocity is 25, I don't want bring in a 50-point story. how about the problems of a 50-point story anyway? But I don't want to bring in some massive epic like that into a sprint. And so refinement is about making it small, making sure it's sufficiently well understood. Sufficiently well understood, not perfectly. And so
Brian Milner (12:18)
Yeah.
Mike (12:28)
The problem is these teams, and I know you've seen this, but teams who get in there, want to resolve every open issue. It's like, no, we can resolve that during the sprint. If we think about the goal and planning to make sure we know what to bring into the sprint, not too much, not too little, we're fine just enough that you're at that point. Is the button blue or red? Who cares? If it's a log in story, we're going to lock people out after some number of failed attempts. Who cares how many? Figure that out during the sprint. If it's five or three or eight, who cares? Figure that out later. So I think refinements won. Another big one would be reviews, ⁓ where sometimes teams demo too much in a sprint review. And they feel like they have to justify their existence, show everything you did during the sprint. And the most egregious example of that was this was a handful of years ago. But I literally remember a team showing
Brian Milner (12:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike (13:18)
how they had updated the copyright notice on the footer of the web page, know, copyright, you know, whatever year our company, right? And it's like, my God, you didn't need to show that to stakeholders, right? We all either know there's a copyright notice on the bottom of the web page or we've seen one before. I don't need you to bring it up and scroll down to it. Now only took 15 seconds of the meeting, but that was 15 seconds of people's lives. They were never going to get back. you know, show stuff that you need feedback on, right? If you'd...
Brian Milner (13:41)
Right.
Mike (13:45)
You fixed a bug and you fixed it only way it could be fixed. Mention it perhaps, but you don't need to show it, right?
Brian Milner (13:51)
Yeah, yeah, know teams I've been on often it's just it's suffice it to have a list sometimes and just say here's a list of things if you want to know more about these come talk to us but we're move on to the stuff you care about.
Mike (14:02)
Yeah, I always have like a will show, will not show list. you know, I often, if I'm writing the meetup present, that'll put that up on Zoom or, you know, show it on a screen if we're in person. And often somebody wants to see something that's on the will not show list. Or they just want me to describe what bug was that again? What was that? You know, and I'll explain it really quickly. But if nobody wants to see it, don't bother showing it. So.
Brian Milner (14:26)
Yeah, I know we talk about these scrum practices quite a bit in the working on the scrum team class, but if someone signed up to take this class, what can they expect to hear or what can they expect to learn about these practices in the course?
Mike (14:39)
Well, I think one of the things that you and I did together in creating the newest version of the course was to look at what do you actually need to practice doing, and it's feasible to practice doing in a classroom setting, versus what should you just kind of talk through. And not everything needs to be practiced to get the hang of it, right? Everybody in the world has taken something big and split it up into smaller things before, right? I need to make. spaghetti dinner tonight. What do need to buy? Right? OK. Well, that's that's that's test decomposition by noodles, by sauce, by tomatoes. Let's make it from scratch. Right. By some garlic. Right. So everybody in the world has done decomposition. We've broken a big thing into small things. And I remember, you know, iterating over I'm still on sprint planning, I guess. But I remember iterating over exercises in sprint planning and in courses over the decades by now. And I would have one where you're planning a party for your kid, break it down into tasks. It's like, nobody learns anything from this. And so that's one where I'd rather say, OK, this problem occurs in sprint planning. How could you solve it? Other things like, let's say, splitting user stories or splitting job stories, that's a skill worth practicing together, getting feedback on. And so those type of things we try to practice in the course. other things we just talk about. mean, I'm curious on your thoughts on that. What do you think about some things being worth practicing, some things worth being better talked about?
Brian Milner (16:01)
Yeah, I agree. I agree fully. it's, it's, you know, there's some things, it's kind of like what you said before, there's some things that's not worth spending the time on, and it's better to just have a discussion and move on.
Mike (16:13)
Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's one of the things we always talked about. We always talked about return on investment of the exercise. What's the return on the exercise? And if you're going to have a one hour exercise, cool. One hour exercise. But it better have a pretty healthy return because that's a lot of time in class. And so what's the return on exercise? Is this worth a practice? Is it worth just a discussion? And if we can discuss two hard problems and give people advice on two common problems, they're probably going to face.
Brian Milner (16:21)
Yeah.
Mike (16:41)
Might be better than spending 20 minutes practicing something that they've probably done before.
Brian Milner (16:45)
Yeah, I completely agree. Let's move to the third pillar then, because I know this is a big one, just thinking and talking about the roles. And just as far as communication issues are concerned, even outside of Scrum, I know that's part of the big problem with teams and organizations just not being clearly defined about who does what and who's responsible for each thing. So those misunderstandings are really common failure points. ⁓
Mike (17:09)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (17:10)
How do you see teams getting that wrong and how's that derailing a Scrum team?
Mike (17:15)
Well, think we see it all the time on Scrum teams between Scrum Master and Product Owner and even the development team, right? Who does what? I was responding to some comments on LinkedIn this morning on some post I'd made last week and somebody had some comments. And it had to do with whether the Scrum Master or Product Owner does something. And it was interesting because in the comments on that post, I... I don't remember which one it was, but I shared a certain perspective. I feel pretty strongly that I have it right. I mean, I this is how we do it. But there were other people saying the opposite, right? And so, you know, these are people that are probably fairly experienced with Scrum, if they're following me on LinkedIn and feel comfortable commenting on a post, probably feel comfortable with it. And so there's a lot of confusion about what role does what thing. And I don't think this is something where the Scrum guy is going to have the answers for you. I think it's, I mean, you can look at the Scrum guy, oh, this. Here's my starting point answer, but we always want to play to people's strengths, right? And if you've got a scrum master who's got a lot of skill in one area, maybe they shift a little work from the PO to themselves, right? With the PO's permission, right? And the opposite, right? Between maybe PO and team. So it's fine to have default starting positions on who does what, but you always want to play to people's strengths. So I think PO scrum master, I think we see it with project managers and scrum masters, roll confusion on those type of roles as well.
Brian Milner (18:38)
Yeah, completely agree. A lot of those roles that are not named Scrum team roles and how they interact with the team, that's often a source of confusion as well. What are maybe some signs or symptoms that teams might be having confusion or problems in this area that maybe they don't even recognize or realize they're having an issue with roles?
Mike (18:59)
Any sort of conflicts, right? You know, you and I arguing over which one of us should do something. The other one would be kind of the opposite, which would be like a dropped ball. I was watching some YouTube video. I love baseball. I was watching some YouTube video the other day of like missed catches or something like that. And some team hit a baseball way up in the air and it was landing near three players, right? Three players are all looking at it.
Brian Milner (19:12)
You
Mike (19:23)
One guy waves the other two off, he's going to catch the ball and he must have been blinded by the sun because he's like six feet from the ball when it lands on the ground, right? And, you know, if we have a responsibility to catch the ball, run this meeting, right, right the backlog, the kids dropped, right? And so I think either arguing over who does something, two of us trying to do the same thing or neither of us doing it. I don't mean trying to get out of the work, right? All three players have been happy to catch the ball, but I think you've got it. You think I've got it, right? Those type of things are pretty good signs. think getting clarity around these roles can really optimize how a team works. And I think a really key thing here is that it changes over time. So I'll go back to my example of maybe the Scrubmaster has some skills that can help the product owner early on. Because maybe the product owner is new to the company. The product owner doesn't know the product as well. So they might rely on the Scrubmaster for guidance on things. Well, a year from now, we might shift responsibilities a little bit because now the PO is the expert on all things related to the product. So it's not like we want to establish clarity on roles one time and leave it forever. It's going to change. We get a new tester on the team, things might change. Product owner moves. It's going to change again. So we need to realize these responsibilities are dynamic.
Brian Milner (20:39)
Yeah, that's a great point. Your point about baseball just made me think about how, when you watch any youth sport in the world, when you go watch your kids play a sport, what's the one thing you always hear people scream from the sideline? Talk to each other. Call the ball. Well, that too. That too. Ump your blind. Those kinds of things. Well, let's talk a little bit about
Mike (20:52)
I thought you were going say, put my kid in.
Brian Milner (21:00)
I know this course addresses the roles and how would you say this course really helps address that issue of role confusion?
Mike (21:07)
think a big part of it is that we designed it to be for everybody on the team, right? Suppose you send a scrum master to a class, and it's a great class. Scrum master is going to back to the certain set of impressions about their role. Product owner goes to an equally good class about the product. They might have different impressions. Even if they took the course from the same instructor, they're hearing it a little differently. They're hearing it through their filters, right? And so when they're in a course together, there's more opportunities to clarify their understanding about those things, especially in the classes designed as we did with this one to bring out some of those differences. So I think the course helps with that. we've also designed it to mention the rules we haven't talked about, like managers and things like that.
Brian Milner (21:53)
Yeah, yeah, I think those are so important. And there's a lot of great discussions that come out when we have those topics. ⁓ Let's talk about the fourth pillar then, teamwork, because this, I think, builds really well on what we just talked about. And the idea that there's actually, Scrum is a team sport. ⁓ So beyond just normal human personality conflict type issues, what do you see that gets in the way of teams actually
Mike (21:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (22:18)
working as a team.
Mike (22:19)
think ego is probably one, right? I can do everything better, just leave me alone. There's an old book that says basically, beware of a lone developer in a room, right? You know, it was referring to the developer who wants to close their door and say, I'll it done in a month, trust me, right? And one of the companies I worked with, and this one's going back like 15 years ago, but it was a really good story.
Brian Milner (22:36)
Yeah.
Mike (22:43)
is they would literally grab one unit of work. Each person on the team would grab a unit of work and take anywhere from three to 12 months to do the thing. So they were big things, but the person would do everything on it. They'd coded, tested everything. And the organization was putting out very little because of this. When they moved to Scrum in the first year, by their estimate, they said they delivered 540 % more work. over five times the amount of new features delivered. And that was through the collaboration, through the short iterations, those type of things. But it was about getting people to collaborate more. So I think there's huge opportunities to do that. One of the problems I see is when we don't overlap work. If we think about that organization I just described, you grab your thing, you're done in six months. I grab mine, I'm done in seven months. If we'd work together on those things, what's not make us any faster? No faster. But you and I could have worked on your one thing and been done in three months. OK, we're delivering value in three months, right? And so one of the things I look for a lot is how much teams are overlapping work, right? And if we're not overlapping work, there's huge opportunities to improve at that. I'll a little example of this. One of my favorite restaurants is, I don't know, barely call it a restaurant. It's a fast food deli. It's called Jimmy John's. Have you been to Jimmy John's, Yeah. Yeah, there's one near my house where I can go there and the wine will be out the door. Right. And you know, normally you see a wine out the door and it's like, crap, I'm going somewhere else. Right. These guys are so fast. They're so fast. When I get to the front, I place my order. I play this little game of can I fill up my cup? You know, I get an iced tea and they give me an empty cup and can I go fill up ice and put the tea in before they hand me my sandwich? And it's about 50-50. Right. It doesn't take long to fill up your iced tea. But the way they do that is the overlap work. As soon as I order my Italian club sandwich, somebody's already got the bread open, somebody's got a slab of meat they're ready to drop on there, somebody else has their hands over the vegetables and they're dropping the vegetables on there, and then a fourth person wraps it up. And so like four or five people touch my sandwich. Hopefully their hands are clean, but four or five people touch my sandwich as opposed to like most delis where I go and it's like you watch one person plod along making the sandwich, right? Overlap work is huge.
Brian Milner (25:07)
Yeah. Yeah, this episode sponsored by, no, just kidding. Use code Mike Cohn when you go to, no, just kidding. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with Jimmy John's. Probably too familiar. ⁓ Yes, yeah, no, that's, I think that's part of their shtick is that they're, you know, they're known for being fast. So yeah.
Mike (25:10)
You Is yours just as fast? Yeah. Yeah. They call it Freaky Fast. They actually have a competition. I've seen YouTube videos of this where they get like the best teams at various restaurants race, right? And so they have like the Jimmy John sandwich making Olympics or something, but it's a skill.
Brian Milner (25:36)
wow, wow, yeah. You should pair that up with the hot dog eating challenge in some way and see if we could have a team sport going there. ⁓
Mike (25:48)
Well, that's a good point because think about the hot dog eating. That's one guy, right? That's Joey Chesnett shoving hot dogs down. The Jimmy Johns is a team. They get the best crew at a restaurant and it's a team, right? How fast can the team go? Not how fast can one guy make a sandwich, right?
Brian Milner (25:51)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So what are some tips? What are some ways that you can really unite a team, especially those new teams? Because that's the fascination point for me is, how do you take this group of humans that really don't know each other and haven't worked together in the past and unite them together and have them gel as a team? How do you do that?
Mike (26:21)
I'll give you a couple. One, I think having really crisp sprint goals helps. So we all know exactly what we're trying to get done in the sprint. We don't lose sight of that because sometimes in the middle of a sprint, you lose sight of it. And you get myopic and you just focus on a list of tasks. And I'm going to say that it's probably similar to the team doing sprint planning and just getting them assessed with the numbers. It's not about the numbers. It's not about the tasks. It's about the backlog items that lead to some goal. So crisp sprint goals help. That's a hard phrase. Crisp Sprinkles helps. The other one I'd say is having a shared vision about where you're headed over a little bit longer term. Probably the biggest change to the Scrum Guide ever that I've liked is the inclusion of a product goal. And that was something I'd been talking about forever. mean, literally since I started doing Scrum was that sprinkles are great, but they're pretty short, right? You want to have something bigger.
Brian Milner (26:52)
It is.
Mike (27:14)
And so I like having product goals that are a few months out there. And one of the things I like doing for product goals is have teams do something like write a press release that describes their goal or create a vision in some way, write a review that you want to see come out on the App Store, Play Store, and a magazine. And one of my clients made software and they were reviewed by a major magazine and they were given an editor's choice runner up award. And they actually estimated that being runners up for that was probably worth about $10 million. First place, first time was worth about $10 million a year to them. And so they decided to get serious about this and they wrote a review. Their scrum master, she was actually combo scrum master product owner, Erin. She had the team write a review and she said, let's go earn this review. And I literally remember the email I got from her three months later. It was because it was Halloween night. I just like, you know, brought in the candy from outdoors. We're done trick or treating. And I checked my email. I a three word email from her from Erin. said we did it. And the magazine had let her know, hey, we're reviewing you. be out on, you know, like Tuesday's edition. And the review had quotes in there that were from their vision review, right? The things that they had wanted to achieve.
Brian Milner (28:22)
Ha ha.
Mike (28:35)
And that team had just really jelled around that and just became so much more productive and collaborated so much better because of that shared vision.
Brian Milner (28:43)
Yeah, that's amazing. getting back to the course then, I know in the course we're trying to kind of some of those collaboration muscles. What are some of the ways that the course helps to build that?
Mike (28:56)
think one of the key things that we're doing, and I'm excited about this, is that we're, you know, we of course use Zoom breakout rooms, right? You you go talk about this, we'll see you in eight minutes or something like that. And for this course, we're doing something where a group of three or more, when they register, can have a private breakout room. And this to me is exciting because people get the benefit of having a private breakout room. They can have sensitive discussions if they want. They can talk very specifically about. you know, what do we do about our jerk product owner? mean, whatever it is, right? You know, they can talk about their specific issues, yet have the context of a broader class. Because I think in one of the benefits of any public class is hearing how other teams are doing things. And sometimes that's because you get a good advice, you know, how did you solve that problem? We have that problem. Other times, it's just feeling that you're not alone in the world. they've got that problem too, right? And they don't have any solution for me, but I know I'm not alone in the world with this. And so I like these private breakout rooms for three or more. I think it's a novel thing we're doing with this class. And it's with the intent of combining the best of both worlds of private and public training for this. I'd the other thing is probably consistency, having everybody on the team hear the same message, having those discussions with an experienced instructor like you or me in the room to provide guidance when they have questions. know, go back to the role clarity, right? You know, they can talk about it and they're there. Then they're back in the main room with you or me and we can kind of answer questions. So I think that consistency will be huge as well.
Brian Milner (30:25)
Yeah, yeah, I love that idea of the private private breakout rooms that that's that's gonna be huge for a lot of people I know. ⁓
Mike (30:31)
I'm excited to try it with this. This will be the first classes we do that for. I'm excited about it.
Brian Milner (30:36)
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's bring it home then and talk about the fifth pillar because the fifth pillar is really interesting as well. It talks about support beyond the team and teams can only do so much. Every team struggles when they're not supported well. And there's lots of studies that show leadership support is one of the biggest hurdles or obstacles to the adoption.
Mike (30:46)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (30:59)
What does that support look like from outside the team and how can a team influence that?
Mike (31:06)
Yeah, if you're trying to be agile and your HR group has quarterly reviews of personnel that are all based on individual performance and has nothing to do about teamwork in there, it's going to be hard to focus on collaboration. So we have to kind of fix these issues. I think what we have to do here is to have team members educate those outside the organization. And we have information that we share about, you here's how to talk to a boss that's maybe mandating deadlines, things like that. And so we try to coach people through having some of those challenging conversations. And one of things I want teams to do is kind of become an example of what good agile looks like. And if you have a team that's excelling with agile and they're doing it from a kind of principles first, that mindset first approach. You're going to see other groups look at that and let's say the marketing group. They're going to look at that go, hey, that's an interesting way to work. I wonder how we could do that, right? And it's going look different for a marketing group than a tech team. the mindset is going to be the same. Principles will still be the same. And so when we get teams to do really well with this, other parts of the organization start to get interested. And then they stop being as much in our way.
Brian Milner (32:20)
Yeah. I know one of the most important aspects here and that we talk about is, is that you don't need to, to wait, right? If you're the team level, you don't have to just sit around and wait for the organization to make changes. you, you have opportunities to make changes as well. So how does that happen? How's the team change, you know, bring about those changes that, improve the agile process, the results.
Mike (32:42)
I think that's by being the example so that people see it. I think it's by having those conversations. You know, one of the things that we'll get is, you know, it's so common is the product owner that wants to change their mind all the time. I was reading something, I guess this is in our Agile mentors community, I think is where it was, but it was about the, you know, the product owner who said his favorite thing about Agile is that he can reprioritize every week. ⁓ And it's like, you can, you know.
Brian Milner (33:05)
Hmm. Yeah
Mike (33:10)
I'm not sure it's good. And I think about that, a team gets momentum, right? And you're working on a certain feature. Next sprint, it would be nice to work in that same area of this system, right? Your head's there. Just kind of keep going a little bit. And I've often described this as like, let's say you're working on three backlog items that are in a certain area of this system. Let's make it concrete. Let's say it's the spell checker in Microsoft Office, right? And you do three backlog items related to the spell checker this sprint. Next sprint, maybe your top priority is not more spell checker stuff, but maybe items, I don't know, 25, 26, and 27 on the backlog are still in the spell checker. You know what? It might be better to do those. There are probably two or three sprints away. Let's bring them into this sprint. Just get them done while my head's into spell checking. And so getting product owners or stakeholders to stop doing that, one of the ways that I like to talk about doing that is using an example of ordering a meal at a restaurant. I can order, let's say, the chicken entree. And then as the waiter is taking the orders around the table, I change from chicken, no, bring me the fish. Not a big deal. The waiter is going to cross off chicken and write down fish. If the waiter goes away, brings me back my salad, and I change my mind then, I say, hey, bring me the fish. Might not be a big deal. It's going to be a big deal if I've already taken three bites of the chicken. right? Or if he brings me the chicken. So yeah, we can change our mind, but there's a cost, right? And we want to educate stakeholders about that cost. They don't overdo it.
Brian Milner (34:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of the leaders and the organization, managers, leaders, do you think this course is appropriate for managers and leaders to attend as well? you feel like they might need to in order to really have this be an impact?
Mike (34:55)
Yeah, that's a good question. Is it appropriate? Yeah, I think it's appropriate. When we do this privately, we've had plenty of leaders and managers attend. I think it's great. I don't think that's required because they're not on the Scrum team. You said the name of the course is working on a Scrum team. And so they're not on the Scrum team. They benefit by knowing more how their Scrum team works. But I think what we found is that having just a key subset of people who hear the same message work through the training together, and then go back to the organization. That's enough to bring the passion, conviction, and skills that we want. So we don't truly need leaders. They're great. I would never talk a leader out of going, but I wouldn't. If I were a team and I could take the class this month or with my leader next month, I would just get the class done, right? And educate the leader afterwards.
Brian Milner (35:41)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good plan. All right, well then we've made our way through the five pillars and for people who have come this far with us and are at this point, if they're listening and they're recognizing some of these problems we've been talking about, what would you recommend to them as next steps here?
Mike (35:49)
if Well, take a look at our website. If you go to mountaingoatsoftware.com. And then I think there's a courses link on the top. You can go up there and find the link to this course. It's an exciting one that we're doing. I've literally been teaching this, I think the first time I taught a class called Working on a Scrum Team was 2003 or 2004. it's a time tested course. You and I kind of redesigned it a couple of months ago to make it appropriate for public. or little better just in general and more appropriate for public. But it's a time-tested course that's now designed to be available for public settings instead of, you know, have to have 25 people or something.
Brian Milner (36:36)
Yeah, yeah, that's really exciting. I can't wait to see kind of how people are in, you know, react and interact in the course to some of these concepts and ideas. And we'll, we'll of course link to all these things that we've talked about in our show notes and make it easy for everyone to find the course listing and, and, you know, where the dates and everything that we're going to offer them. So make sure to check that out. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. This has been really enlightening and I appreciate you making time for it.
Mike (37:01)
Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. Always a pleasure.

Pressing Pause: A Summer Break and What’s Coming Next

We’re taking our own advice and hitting pause to recharge this July. While we’re off the mic, revisit past episodes packed with timeless insights and conversations you may have missed.
Overview
This week, we're pressing pause to model the sustainable pace we teach. Brian shares a quick update about our summer break, what’s ahead in August, and how you can make the most of the podcast archive while we’re away.
Whether you’re poolside or simply stepping back from the daily sprint, we hope you’ll join us in creating a little breathing room and we can’t wait to be back with a fresh season soon.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Subscribe & Listen to Previous Episodes of the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00) Hey there Agile Mentors, this is Brian Milner and I'm just gonna take a moment of your time today because we're actually going to be practicing what we teach here at Agile Mentors and we're gonna be working at a sustainable pace. So for us that means we're gonna take a few weeks off. It's summer and I know many of you are going to be taking time off with your families and we're gonna be doing the same thing.
So we won't be around for the next month. We're gonna be out of here for July, but already have some plans for when we come back in August. So stay tuned when we come back in August, we've got a new season of shows that will begin there in August that I think you'll really enjoy.
While we're off, might I suggest you go back through our archive. Look at some of the previous podcast episodes we've done. There's quite a few now. And maybe you've missed some of the episodes from the past. Go back and find some of our great guests that we've had over the years when we've been doing this. I think you'll find some really great guests and some really interesting topics. So fill your diet of Agile Mentors with that while we're at taking a little bit of a break here at Agile Mentors.
I hope you're having a great summer and we look forward to seeing all of you back here in August. Take care.

#151: What AI Is Really Delivering (and What It’s Not) with Evan Leybourn & Christopher Morales

Is AI underdelivering? Or are we asking the wrong questions? This episode breaks down what actually leads to business ROI with AI (and no, it’s not more automation).
Overview
What if AI isn’t the silver bullet—yet—but the bottleneck is human, not technical?
In this episode, Brian Milner chats with Evan Leybourn and Christopher Morales of the Business Agility Institute about their latest research on how organizations are really using AI, what’s working (and what’s wildly overhyped), and why your success might hinge more on your culture than your code.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Evan Leybourn
Christopher Morales
Business Agility Institute
From Constraints to Capabilities Report
Delphi Method
#93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn
#82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton
#117: How AI and Automation Are Redefining Success for Developers with Lance Dacy
AI Practice Prompts For Scrum Masters
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of Directing the Agile Organization and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value. Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy.
Christopher Morales is a seasoned digital strategist and agile leader with over 20 years of experience guiding organizations like ESPN, IBM, and the Business Agility Institute. As founder of Electrick Media, he helps U.S. and European businesses harness AI to make smarter, more sustainable decisions in a rapidly changing world.

#150: What “1 Billion” Scrum Classes Taught Us About Team Culture (and Captain America) with Cort Sharp & Laura Kendrick

Laura Kendrick and Cort Sharp hijack the mic to share what it’s really like behind the scenes at Mountain Goat. From Zoom bloopers to unexpected team bonding, they unpack how a fully remote team built a thriving, human-centered workplace.
Overview
In this special takeover episode, Laura Kendrick and Cort Sharp pull back the curtain on what goes into running hundreds of Scrum and Product Owner classes virtually—and why Mountain Goat's remote team still feels so close-knit.
With stories of early tech headaches, Slack banter, hilarious costume moments, and the quiet rituals that keep the team connected, they explore how remote work can actually foster strong relationships and top-tier collaboration. If you’ve ever wondered how to make a distributed team work (or just want a peek at some Zoom-era growing pains), this one’s for you.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Laura Kendrick
Cort Sharp
#61: The Complex Factors in The Office Vs. Remote Debate with Scott Dunn
#147: The Power of Quiet Influence with Casey Sinnema
Run a Daily Scrum Your Team Will Love
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years.
Laura Kendrick is the producer of the Agile Mentors Podcast and a seasoned Scrum Master who keeps virtual classes running smoothly. Outside the podcast, she helps clients apply Scrum techniques to their marketing and business strategy, bringing structure and momentum to big, creative ideas.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. As you may have noticed, I am not Brian Milner. I am Laura Kendrick, and this is Cort Sharp. And if you have taken a class with us at Mountain Goat in the last five years, there is a good chance that you have met one or actually both of us.
Cort Sharp (00:19)
I think it's like 90 % chance, 95 % honestly. We've been in so many of these classes.
Laura Kendrick (00:26)
Definitely, and oftentimes together too with one of us TAing, one of us producing, sometimes one of us teaching court.
Cort Sharp (00:33)
once in a while, once in a while. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (00:37)
So we thought we would come on over here and hijack the podcast to share a little bit about some of the insights that we have gained from doing about a billion, maybe a little exaggeration.
Cort Sharp (00:49)
Roughly. Roughly. We've done roughly a billion classes with Mountain Goat. Yes.
Laura Kendrick (00:56)
We have seen a lot in the certifying of Scrum Masters and product owners and advanced product owners and Scrum Masters and all of the evolution of the classes that we have done. We actually hold quite a bit of insight into what is happening in this world. And so we thought we would come in, steal the podcast, and share a little bit of what we have seen, learned, observed, and really just kind of Honestly, some of the laughs and fun that we've had along the way.
Cort Sharp (01:25)
Also, I think, I don't know, just your intro right there is talking about, hey, we've seen the evolution of these classes. That just got my brain going of like, remember the first class that we did? Way like 2020. I mean, I was in my parents' basement with really terrible internet. It was a struggle.
Laura Kendrick (01:40)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (01:49)
But we were working on like Miro boards or mural. One of the two, forget which, which tool it was, but that was, yeah, that was before team home. And then we got to see the first version of team home. We helped do a little testing with it. And then we've seen it grow all the way into this awesome tool that we have nowadays. And I don't know, just, just to me, I think it's cool to see how we've been iterating and be part of that process of the iteration process, um, to develop these classes and these courses into.
Laura Kendrick (01:52)
Mm-hmm. Mural. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Cort Sharp (02:20)
the truly awesomeness that they are today. Personally, I'd rather take a virtual class than an in-person class with Mountain Goat at this point.
Laura Kendrick (02:27)
It's funny that you say that because I notice actually the iteration of the experience like outside of the tech piece because you know, that's where my brain goes. Here's the difference between court and I. I'm noticing the interactions. But I've noticed, mean how people are interacting a little bit differently in the online space, how even our team interacts, like all of those things has become so much more sophisticated and amazing and
Cort Sharp (02:39)
Yeah, just a bit.
Laura Kendrick (02:54)
I mean, honestly, we sometimes talk on our team between like the producing and TA team where like I've referred to it as a perfect game if we don't need anything from the outside team, which occasionally we need a lot of support from the outside team, but we've we've got this down at this point. And it is it's become those first classes. I remember them being super stressful, like, my gosh, the breakout rooms and all the things and just being like, I mean, you couldn't do.
Cort Sharp (03:17)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (03:21)
It was almost like learning how to drive where you felt like if you turned the radio knob up, you might actually turn the whole car. And it was like, so much anxiety.
Cort Sharp (03:31)
I mean, but we just didn't know Zoom then. Zoom didn't even know itself then, right? What Zoom is, ⁓ for those of you who don't know, we host all of our virtual classes on Zoom. And learning that platform, like I'd used it once maybe for some just, yeah, here's Zoom exists in one of my college classes. That was about it. But yeah, totally. was like, man, what does this button do? Hopefully it doesn't end the meeting and kick everyone out.
Laura Kendrick (03:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah, no kidding. But you know what's really interesting too, though, is that it's been over five years now for both of us being part of the Mountain Goat team. And we all work remotely. And other than you and Mike for a little while being right down the road from each other, none of us had any actual interpersonal interaction with each other outside of Zoom email and Slack and the occasional, know, fretted text message of like, are you late? Where are you?
Cort Sharp (03:58)
Absolutely, yeah, totally. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (04:26)
But other than that it like we truly were of and still are a fully remote team and the crazy thing about it is we have at this point once gotten together as a full team in person and it was such an interesting experience being having been fully remote and then being in person and in particular the team that is live on the classes
Cort Sharp (04:39)
Yep. Yep.
Laura Kendrick (04:51)
It was a very different interaction because we have this time built into our classes where the team gets on the Zoom call 30 minutes earlier than the students do. And we get this time to just honestly have like water cooler chat and like friend chat or occasionally see Mike get on and you can't hear him, but you can see that he is quite angry at his very elaborate tech system that is not working correctly.
Cort Sharp (05:14)
you That does happen. Yes, it does. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (05:21)
these moments, I feel like they really bonded us together. Because when we got together in person, it was old friends. wasn't even fast friends. It was old friends. And the banter even that goes on in Slack is fun and engaging and not rigid and confining.
Cort Sharp (05:31)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. I mean, I'm just thinking back to like the first time because that was the first time I met you in person. aside from being like, wow, she's a lot shorter than I thought she would be.
Laura Kendrick (05:47)
Mm-hmm. shorter. By the way, court is like 6-4.
Cort Sharp (05:55)
Yeah, yeah. Not that you're short. But I've just always ever seen like, the profile like the profile picture. That's all that it's really ever been. So I'm like, yeah, you're like, what I would consider normal height, which you totally are. But in my mind, I was like, yeah, it's weird seeing, you know, your legs. That's funny. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (06:14)
We digress.
Cort Sharp (06:15)
But aside from that, was like we've known each other for three, four, four years because we've had that time to get to know each other. We've had that time to talk about just life events, what's going on, where we live, what's happening, what the deal is going on with life. Because we've been very intentional about having that time with that. The 30 minutes before each class were originally very much so used to take care of any tech problems. As the years have gone by, we've for the most part figured out the tech problems. Sometimes, you know, we'll change something out.
Laura Kendrick (06:48)
Except, hold on, except last week in Lance's class, we were talking about his dog and suddenly it looked as though Lance in his entire room did a cartwheel because the camera just fell. This is not a small camera.
Cort Sharp (07:02)
It said, nope, I'm out. ⁓ man.
Laura Kendrick (07:06)
So we still occasionally have the tech problem.
Cort Sharp (07:09)
Yes we do, yes we do. That's why we still do the 30 vimits.
Laura Kendrick (07:14)
The crazy thing about that is that when we landed at this in-person meeting, there were members of the team that at that time, and I in particular had never had any interaction with. so like other than the odd email or Slack message, so it was like really knew their name, but didn't really work with them up until that moment. And it was really interesting because at one point, the way that the leadership team had mentioned of like, well, if you need somebody to step in and talk to Mike for you, if you're not comfortable. And I remember looking at court and being like, Mike's the one I'm most comfortable with in this room because of that 30 minutes. I feel like I know Mike. I feel like we have an actual interpersonal relationship where I have no problem speaking up and saying the things that I need to. And that has made like those little water cooler times, those little
Cort Sharp (07:54)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (08:06)
bantery questions, them asking about my kids or hobbies or whatever. And just knowing those things made a huge difference in our team functioning. The communication across time zones was so much better and easier and safer.
Cort Sharp (08:24)
Absolutely. We were talking a little bit before we were recording about just people who want pure in-person no matter what. I think at this point, I will always push back on that and say, you might not get that quote unquote collaboration time that's naturally built in, but if you're intentional about it and you provide the space and provide the resources,
Laura Kendrick (08:32)
Hmm.
Cort Sharp (08:50)
And also, kind of push people along, have some, I don't know, working agreements or something of, hey, our cameras are on whenever we're talking with each other, unless something like drastic is going on or something's happening, right? Which I think we're going to get into in a little bit, but it's massive. It's crazy.
Laura Kendrick (09:03)
That's huge. Yeah, I mean, it is. I think we can definitely speak to that in our own experience because we've had, of course, there are moments where people don't have cameras. There are moments where people have bad connections and we'll encourage them in class, like turn off your camera, save your bandwidth. But there are also moments where we are doing private classes for companies. In particular, we've done some with companies that work with like Department of Defense. So there's like real security. issues there and so they don't turn their cameras on. Their cameras are totally disabled on their computers. And it is, I have to say those classes are some of the most like energy draining classes I'm ever present in because I'll be there with the trainer and I feel like I have to give all this emotional feedback because when you are talking to a black screen, that's, it's really hard to just.
Cort Sharp (09:47)
Hmm.
Laura Kendrick (09:58)
survive that because you're not getting any feedback from anyone. So you don't know what's happening and you're constantly questioning and the kind of banter in your own mind is like, God, is it landing? Is it not? And you're just not getting any of that physical feedback. So I feel like when I'm on a class with a trainer like that, I feel like I have to be like, that's funny. I'm like, yeah, good point.
Cort Sharp (10:19)
Yeah, you're kidding.
Laura Kendrick (10:21)
I'm tired
Cort Sharp (10:22)
You No, I get that. And I've had some pretty similar experiences too. I might not be as in tune with the emotional side as stated earlier. So I might not help the trainers out nearly as much as I probably should. But I do think cameras on just can make all the difference. And again, situations where it's just not possible. Absolutely understand that. One of our trainers, Lance, he
Laura Kendrick (10:39)
Mm-hmm.
Cort Sharp (10:47)
He always likes to throw out the phrase, look, let's approach everything with grace, patience, and mercy. So I like, which I really appreciate, and I like that he throws that out there. But I think that's a good thing to keep in mind of like, know, even though you have the company policy, you have the working agreement, whatever it is that says, look, camera's on all the time, sometimes it's just not possible. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I recently had to figure out internet in the middle of nowhere, because that's where I live now.
Laura Kendrick (10:52)
Mm. No.
Cort Sharp (11:15)
And I was worried for a while that I wouldn't be able to put my camera on. But, you know, if if they came down to that, I know that it would be, hey, you know, it's a it's a unique situation. It's something different. And we're going to do we're going to work the best that we can with it and try to figure out maybe you can turn your camera on for any time you're talking or just any time you have something to say or, you know, if you're agreeing with something, you could briefly turn your camera on to show like, yeah, I'm nodding. I'm agreeing. I'm doing whatever. Right. But
Laura Kendrick (11:45)
Honestly, I think recently I had a very busy day and we communicate in back channels, of course through email, but also we use Slack as a team. And so I sent a direct message to court about something and I just like, I sent it in a voice? No. And court's response was, didn't know you could do that in Slack. But in those moments, I think there are other ways of doing it too, where you can bring the humanity out, where it's not just words.
Cort Sharp (12:01)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (12:09)
So often I'm actually thinking about there was one time that you and I were talking about something and I misread it as like, I like kicked something, like some hornet's nest in there. Like you were upset with me, but you were like, no, that was not my intention. And it's an amazing thing that that's only happened once in five years. There was that subtle nuanced miscommunication of I thought I had offended in some way and I hadn't.
Cort Sharp (12:18)
So. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (12:34)
Just keeping that in mind though, in written word, tone is interpreted because probably what happened is I like offended my kid or my partner and was bringing that into the conversation with court. And it had nothing to do with what was actually happening, but adding in those personal things of your face, your voice, those things really do help move that human connection, which enables the teamwork that we've seen at Mountain Go.
Cort Sharp (12:42)
Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (13:00)
I mean, it's amazing the way this team functions and it is not perfect. There are definitely communications missteps. There are definitely like, oops, forgot to leave that piece out of the information packet. It happens. It happens to everybody, but we're able to recover really quickly or even it's a safe enough space to be able to speak up and say, I think I got left out on this. And it's responded to in a really gracious and amazing way.
Cort Sharp (13:26)
It absolutely is. I mean, Mountain Goat's been remote for longer than the COVID stuff, the pandemic stuff happened.
Laura Kendrick (13:33)
Yeah. Well, Lisa's been with them for what, 10 years? I think it was nearly 10 years when we started, maybe 15. And Hunter's around the same. So yeah, they've been spread for a long time.
Cort Sharp (13:42)
Something like that, Uh-huh. ⁓ I know that they had an office space and that office space changed just in case people wanted to like come in, come to the office. I think at one point, one of them was in Colorado, which is kind of funny because several people live on the West coast. And then it's like, okay, yeah, come on, come on, swing by the... Colorado office on just a random Tuesday. Yeah, fly in, have fun. I don't know. Yeah, why not? I don't know what the deal was or what it was like, but they've been fully remote. And I think with the kind of runway that they've had leading up until the time where everyone had to be fully remote has really benefited Mountain Go in a lot of ways, because a lot of those early, like, how do we work remote? How do we do this?
Laura Kendrick (14:09)
I'd do that. Yeah, let's do it.
Cort Sharp (14:31)
kind of was ironed out, but back to your, your point to just like, it's, it's incredible how much support there is. It's incredible how much, how well communication again, it's not perfect, but how well we're able to communicate with each other and how well we're able to just say, yeah, let's, let's hop on a call real quick or here. I think most of us have like personal phone numbers. We, we use that as a very much so last resort type deal.
Laura Kendrick (14:57)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (14:59)
But even then, it's nice to just have those open lines of communication and know that those are always available, but also know that people are kind of in our corner all the time too. And I think you have a pretty good story about this one. Something happened in a class a few years ago.
Laura Kendrick (15:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was early on we had, it was a non-Mike class. So it was one of the other instructors and there was a student who was just challenging. And in the end, it didn't go well in the moment, to put it, just to kind of like not go into grave detail about it. But Mike wasn't there, right? And so The thing that was interesting though is the first piece of communication that came from Mike, which was before that class even broke, right? Because it was one of those things of like, we have to share. As a team, we can't hide it. We have to share that something happened in class that was less than ideal. And so we did. And the immediate response from Mike was in support of the team. And later on, he did go and review the tape of the, because the classes are recorded, not for this purpose. They're recorded actually so that the students get a recording of the class afterwards and can return to what, you know, all the things that they learned because it's a lot to take in in two days. But in this one instance, it was beneficial in this way because Mike could actually see rather than taking people's words, what happened. And I think the important thing is not even what happened after, but what happened in the moment. that he instantaneously was like, I've got you. Like no matter how this goes, we're a team and I'm gonna support you as well. And that was actually, that was pretty early on for me. And it was in a moment where I didn't know Mike that well yet. And it was actually this very solidifying moment for me that was like, I'm in the right place. Like I am part of this team, not just a minion or an employee. Like they care about all of us.
Cort Sharp (16:48)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (16:56)
and we're in this together, even if it turns out that we're in some form of trouble, it's still going to be thoughtfully managed and handled rather than just the kind of lashing out that can happen in so many environments.
Cort Sharp (17:12)
Right. And, and that experience, cause I think we were all included on that email. Like I, I wasn't in the class when it happened, but I do remember getting that email and it just was a clear communication from kind of head honcho Mike, right? A top dog saying, yeah, no, we, we got your back. on, we're on the same team. We're all working towards the same goal. And when I, when I read the email, I was like, wow, that was an eventful class. but.
Laura Kendrick (17:26)
Mm-hmm. us.
Cort Sharp (17:38)
My second thought, my second thought was, huh, this very similar to what you were saying of like, wow, this is a great place to be. This is a great company to work for. These are great people to be working with and alongside. ⁓ but also like, I know so many people whose managers, whose higher ups would say, Nope, you're in the wrong. You should have done better. Your toast, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like putting all the blame on you. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (17:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. The knee jerk. Yeah. Yeah.
Cort Sharp (18:07)
And it just, makes me think all the time of like one really blessed, like very fortunate to be here, very fortunate to work with mountain goat. but also people don't quit jobs. They quit managers. They quit leadership more often than not. And, not that I'm talking about quitting mountain goat, but, neither, neither of us are throwing that out there right now, but just like,
Laura Kendrick (18:20)
Mmm. Yeah. No, but interestingly in five years, I've not seen anybody quit. I mean, we've had people kind of go down separate paths, but nobody has been throwing their hands up and been like, I'm done. I can't be in this. There have been people who have taken other opportunities that they needed to take for their own businesses. But yeah, nobody's quit. In five years, no one has quit, which speaks volumes to the culture that is created in an environment where
Cort Sharp (18:37)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (18:57)
And I also want to be clear that that response from Mike also, it wasn't disparaging to the other party either. It was simply a, like, it just let us know that I see you and this, you were in a hard moment in the moment and you had to react like a human being and you as a team, I've got your back and this is, you know, great. And to be fair to that was like in the heat of COVID.
Cort Sharp (19:24)
Yes, yeah It was yeah
Laura Kendrick (19:27)
good times. But there's also been a lot of fun that's happened in class too, which is, I think that makes a big difference. Like where we are, I don't want to say allowed because I don't think that's right, but like part of the culture is to have fun. Like Mike is a pretty funny guy. Brian's a pretty funny guy. Like honestly, the whole team is quite humorous and it's, we're allowed to like make these really fun things and
Cort Sharp (19:48)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (19:52)
in response to like when we see them in class, like, we foster those two and it becomes this really fun working environment, not only for us, for our students. You brought up one that I had totally forgotten about with the costume. That was good.
Cort Sharp (20:06)
⁓ yeah, I, I, yeah, I'll, I'll get into the costume thing, but I think the word you're looking for instead of allowed is enabled. Like we're, we're enabled to have fun. We're encouraged. Absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. If you ever hung out with Mike or, or taking a class with him, you've probably heard some funny stories.
Laura Kendrick (20:13)
Yeah, Encouraged, in fact. And my gosh, the one class too where Mike was asked how long they'd have access to like the videos and stuff. my gosh, Mike ended the class and it was a super engaged Chipper class. Everyone was laughing and Mike brought it down. Cause he did his usual thing where he talked about, what does he say? You have access as long as the internet exists and I'm alive. And then he went into great detail. great detailed speculation about what will happen once he's not alive. It went on for like five minutes.
Cort Sharp (20:58)
Yeah, where where he's like, yeah, you know, my kids will probably be like, what's this? What's this old website that dad's still hosting? Guess we'll we'll close that up 10 years down the line or whatever.
Laura Kendrick (21:09)
Dumbfounded. It was so good. But anyhow.
Cort Sharp (21:13)
man. But there was, I don't even remember why this happened in the class. don't think it was around like Halloween time or something. think the person, actually, I think the person does this to go to like local children's hospitals or local hospitals and just visit. But I get on and I'm normally the PM producer. So I normally hop on in the afternoon. And I took over from Laura and
Laura Kendrick (21:22)
No, it wasn't. think so.
Cort Sharp (21:39)
Laura was like, yeah, you know, pretty normal class. This happens, whatever. We're good. And I hop on and people start turning their cameras on. And then all of a sudden there's this dude in a Captain America costume. Like what? He's got the mask. He's got the, the, the uniform. He's got the shield and everything. And I was like, what is happening? What is going on? Come to find out he was telling his story.
Laura Kendrick (21:50)
Like full on math.
Cort Sharp (22:04)
Yeah, I do this. This is cool. And Mike was like, that'd be awesome to see. He went out, put it on and took the rest of the classes Captain America. So we have certified Captain America.
Laura Kendrick (22:12)
Awesome. We've had, there was the guy who was put on like a crazy hat for the first session and then came back for session two with a different crazy hat. And then other people started wearing crazy hats. And by the end of it, like by the final session, almost the entire class was sitting there with some like their kids stuff on their heads. it was.
Cort Sharp (22:34)
You
Laura Kendrick (22:36)
But was this one, like it stands out of the billion classes we've done. It stands out in our minds as these really fun moments. I remember the class where it was a private class, so it was for a company or team. And there were, it took me until the very end to, it was early on, so it took me until the very end to get up the gumption. There were five mics in the class. And finally I was like, I'm just gonna put them all in the same room and see if anybody notices.
Cort Sharp (22:36)
People just... Yes. Didn't they notice like right away, they all came back and they're like, team Mike is back in action or something, right?
Laura Kendrick (23:04)
I don't think they said anything, but they did. The instructor went into the room and like, yeah, they noticed. Good. My passive aggressive humor worked.
Cort Sharp (23:10)
Hehehehehe It's fun. It's all good. But it's also like going back to us being able to do this before I figured out kind of my background situation, I would always put up virtual backgrounds and I would just change your background every time and see if people noticed. And it wasn't, it was a lot of Disney. Yes.
Laura Kendrick (23:23)
Mm-hmm. Disney. That's the thing though. That also, that kind of stuff built a little bit of a relationship as well. like it was, court was always going to have something for Disney. I had one that I would, when I finally found the one I liked, I kept that one for a long time. And Mike would occasionally, when I wasn't in a class, he would send me a screenshot of somebody via email and be like, somebody's in your house with you. Cause they would have the same background.
Cort Sharp (23:52)
Yeah!
Laura Kendrick (23:56)
those little tiny things make the relationships and make the team function and make us giggle. So I'd be like out with my kids and see an email and be like, oh no, Mike, what does he need? And then click in and be like, you know, actually more often than not, it would probably be like, am I missing class? See, I'd be like, oh, that's funny. But you know, it builds that relationship. And I think it's why this remote working has worked so well for us. And I'm totally with you where I, when people are
Cort Sharp (24:13)
You Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (24:26)
railing against it because of my experience. like, you're crazy. This is great.
Cort Sharp (24:31)
Exactly. I'm like, how can you not want to just chill out, hang out in your home, chat with some people, get some work done, and like, you're good. Who despises that? Who doesn't like that? don't know. It's, Exactly, yeah. But I do think it does, it comes down to being intentional with it. We were talking about that 30 minutes before that used to be primarily tech troubleshooting.
Laura Kendrick (24:47)
I know, you get to do things on your own time too.
Cort Sharp (25:01)
but has since kind of evolved into, okay, so everything, like, I don't know about you, but the vast majority of time, unless a camera's fallen, the vast majority of time, it's, all right, does everything look good? Yeah? Cool. Sure does. Whoever I'm working with, awesome. So, what'd you do this weekend? how was this? ⁓ sorry, sorry that the Avs lost to the Dallas Stars. Yeah, I'm sorry too. Stuff like that, right? Where it's just,
Laura Kendrick (25:19)
Yeah. It's water cooler talk.
Cort Sharp (25:29)
It's fun, but we're very intentional with having that time to do that. And I think if you're not intentional in setting up that time, whether if you're working remote hybrid, you're not going to get it. And it's not just going to naturally happen because it is so much more difficult to produce. it's impossible for it to just kind of naturally pop up without taking away from some other intentional time. so I think in, in this this world that we're living in where there is the option to work remotely and there is this really big push to go back in person. I'm saying stick with remote, take your 15, 15 minute daily standup, and turn it into, you know, say, Hey, I'll be on 10, 15 minutes early. If anyone wants to come hang out, come chat. And make it worth it. Make it a valuable time because that is the time to connect and that is the time to say, yeah, cool. How are the kids? How was your weekend? Did you grill up some good hot dogs during this last weekend? What'd you do? Like, what was going on? ⁓ Build up that stuff.
Laura Kendrick (26:23)
Yeah. We also have Slack channels too, that are like that. Like there's a Slack channel for our team that's just movies, books and TV shows. That people, it'll get active at certain times and it'll be totally dead for a while and nobody's cultivating it. It's simply that somebody will pop in like, I just watched this and it's great. And they've set up also like the automatic bots, cause Mike's a big fan of James Bond. So like if somebody mentions James Bond, the Slack bot will say something quippy and it-
Cort Sharp (26:39)
Yeah. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (26:58)
But it adds that little, like, little bit of humor, little bit of humanness to even though, like, the people that we have time to interact with like that is the team that's in class. So I don't, I mean, it wasn't until we were in person that I met our CTO. He was kind of an enigma, you know?
Cort Sharp (27:10)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. He was just in the background. Things just magically showed up digitally.
Laura Kendrick (27:23)
It was in my email and my Slack sometimes, but it creates that thing of like, now I know things about Hunter. Yes, of course it was because we were in person. I heard lots of stories and all that fun stuff. But also I know about like some of his like TV watching stuff. I know occasionally like what his wife likes to watch because sometimes he'll like pepper in something that, she dragged me into this and not my cup of tea. But it's those little bitty things that you start to learn about the people.
Cort Sharp (27:39)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (27:50)
that makes them human and gives that space. And I also, think it's important to have it be a little bit of white space. so often we talk about cultivating the conversation and like, can you have icebreakers and get people engaged? And yes, those things are so important, but when it's with a team, you need to do those things, but you also need to create the empty space where maybe you have that daily standup or that... weekly meeting or monthly meeting, whatever that is for your team. And maybe at the end of it, it's just leaving the call going and allowing people to just talk. I mean, we did that as a producer team that we would have a meeting as producers that would be very structured and then kind of the official meeting would end. And there would be times where as a team we'd be on that Zoom. I'm like, thank goodness nobody needs this channel. Cause like we'd be in there for like two and a half hours.
Cort Sharp (28:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (28:42)
just talking. And of course, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't billing time. It wasn't, you know, it was just us being friends and hearing each other and sometimes ranting and complaining and doing the things of like, this part was hard and like, yeah, well, people need the space to do that and feel seen and heard. And the only place they're going to get that is in the white space.
Cort Sharp (29:01)
Yep. Exactly. Yep. And where my head went when you were talking about the white space, I love where you just went to because that's absolutely very true. But where my mind went was the newest kind of Slack channel that that's been set up, which is the artificial intelligence. Yeah. Where we just we just it's cool because I'm interested in AI. I think everyone's interested in AI right now. Things are things are going in all sorts of wild directions with it. There's there's all sorts of possibilities that we can do with it.
Laura Kendrick (29:17)
⁓ Yeah, that one's Yeah.
Cort Sharp (29:32)
And Hunter just threw out, who wants in? If you want in, cool, I'll get you in. If not, and you're not interested in AI, let me know when you are, because it'll be at some point, I was going to say. It's just another full group one. Yeah, we just.
Laura Kendrick (29:39)
Yeah. Pretty sure the whole team's in there. But it is fun. Like Hunter and Mike do deep dives and Brian too. And I'm like, wow, I just get to swim in that pool. It's really
Cort Sharp (29:50)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. You just kind of get a glean from what's posted in there and say, oh yeah, I am really interested in the automation side of AI. I want to do, I think I threw in there one time, like this whole GitHub repository that has just from zero to hero AI, here's a two week crash course. And I've been working my way through that. It's taken a lot longer than two weeks for me. I've been working my way through that. And it's opened my eyes to say, okay, now this awesome thing, think Mike just threw in there something about someone using it at Disney, I think it was, and how they were using it at Disney to propose, here's a cool way that we can use AI to help our proposals go faster or help our marketing campaigns go faster or whatever it is. And just learning and seeing and...
Laura Kendrick (30:38)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (30:44)
growing together as a team as well and having that space of, yeah, you know, here's what here, here are these articles that I'm reading. Here's the ones that stuck out to me. And to have that space, I think also is, is really interesting to me too, not just because I like learning, but it's also like, I feel like, okay, I can talk with Mike about AI. I can talk with Hunter about AI. I can talk with whoever about it. And we're all relatively on the same page because we're all relatively getting the same information.
Laura Kendrick (31:14)
Yeah, yeah. I feel like having the Slack channel has been really helpful and all the white space and even honestly the in-person event, there was white space built into that too. There was definitely a lot of structured meetings because of course when you are bringing everyone in from all over the country and actually the world, have a team member who is in the UK too.
Cort Sharp (31:26)
yeah.
Laura Kendrick (31:37)
flying a great distance and being in a space together, it's got to be structured. You have to make that worth the time and effort and investment. But also there were dinners, there were shows that happened, there was fun built into it, and there were options of not just like, I'm forcing you to go to this, but like, here's a choice. Would you like to do this or that? And those things have made a huge difference in breeding the like belongingness.
Cort Sharp (31:55)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (32:05)
and the feeling like we are actually a team. And even though there are definitely times where the frustrations arise, of course, I mean, who doesn't have frustrations, but it's a space where they can be vocalized, they can be talked through, and it's all due to that togetherness that we have, that connectedness that has been built through, honestly,
Cort Sharp (32:05)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (32:30)
just being in these like casual fun spaces is where that comes from in my opinion.
Cort Sharp (32:36)
Yeah, I agree with that. Just having the space to talk about whatever. But I think it's all rooted in communication, right? So in various methods of communicating and various ways of communicating too, where it's not just exclusively Slack, email, written text, we have that space there. But we do still run into some communication problems, right? There's...
Laura Kendrick (32:41)
Yeah. For sure, for sure.
Cort Sharp (32:58)
there's all sorts of communication problems that we're gonna run into because especially we are text-based heavy, but we're not exclusively text-based. But I think you were talking about a story where Mike was late one time or Mike's late story about communication and what was going on with that.
Laura Kendrick (33:12)
he tells it in class. He tells a story in class with that. It's one of his examples that he will pull into fairly frequently with an experience with a team where somebody was always late to the daily standup and they realized that it had to do with the fact that they had to drop their kid off at school. And so it was that simple communication shift of asking instead of assuming, asking which... They've put into practice too, like I recall early on hearing like, do you prefer to be communicated with? And like we've had these conversations that court and I have a tendency to be more slack people. But Brian has stated that for him, like when he's teaching slack is like his emergency line. And so like knowing that I'm not going to send him something through slack unless I desperately need him to see it when I can land it in his email versus Lisa and Laura are much more
Cort Sharp (33:43)
yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (34:04)
they're going to be in the email. Like that's just where they live and they are less likely to be in Slack. So it's just knowing those things have also helped us build the right kind of streams of communication. I'm pretty sure Hunter is everywhere all at once. Like he's omnipresent. You can get him anywhere. I know it. I'm in New York and he's in California. I'm pretty sure if I whispered his name, he's hearing it right now.
Cort Sharp (34:06)
Right. my gosh. He's the enigma. He's the enigma everywhere. I was gonna say, I'm surprised he hasn't popped into this. We've said his name three times. It's, he just knows everything and he's always got everything coming through and no matter what you need, he's any message away. Slack, email, could be carry your pigeon. I don't know, something like that, right?
Laura Kendrick (34:43)
Yeah, his next Halloween costume needs to be Beetlejuice, so I'm sending that to him. my goodness. But I think at the end of the day, the practices that have been put into place that you may have felt in our classes too, have helped really grow this team into what it is. There's a lot of strength here. There's a lot of fun here, but there's a lot of hard work here too. And a lot of, there have been hard moments where we've all just kind of put our heads down together and moved through the hard moments as a team with a lot of support and a lot of.
Cort Sharp (35:12)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (35:15)
Just trying to be in it and be like kind of move things where it needs to go. I don't know what the right word is as a team. It's redundant.
Cort Sharp (35:22)
I think it. Yeah. But I think that that does show in our classes a lot, right? You and I have both taken a class outside of the mountain goat sphere, ⁓ and I'm not I'm not dogging on anyone. I'm not trying to talk down on anyone. But I got out of that class. I was like, man, we are light years ahead of that.
Laura Kendrick (35:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cort Sharp (35:49)
that kind of interaction and that kind of experience. was the information that I got out of that class was awesome, superb. It was great. But just the amount of energy and effort and time that has been invested into these Mountain Goat courses, it's far and away just, it shows. And it shows how much of a level up it is to take a class with Mountain Goat. And I do think partly, you know, I'm boosting my own ego here. But I do think partly it is because we are surrounded with some awesome people and we have some awesome people working together and awesome support on every call, every class that you take with us, right? You don't have to, like the instructor can focus on just instructing. And we, more often than not, we are typically in charge of everything else. Make sure that any tech problems, any issues, anything that's going on, right? Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (36:32)
Yeah. Yeah. I remember the early days. Like you just brought up a memory that apparently I had stored in the trauma bank. I remember the early days though being, because I would often, because I'm on the East Coast, court is in mountain times. So, often I would be the early person just because it's easier for me. was mid morning for me. we would start class and it would be just, especially honestly when like people were figuring out Zoom and all this stuff, it was... stressful. Like they were just, it was just question, question, question, problem, problem, problem. And we would get to the first breakout and I would send everyone away and the instructor would be like, that was great. And I'm like, was, you know, just totally frazzled. But the point was, is no one else felt that. And it was, I was in my Slack and working with the team, working with Hunter, things fixed, working with Lisa, making sure the person was in the right place.
Cort Sharp (37:20)
Yeah, glad. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (37:33)
and doing all these things. And though that has died down because we've all gotten very good at our job and the systems in place are amazing at this point, it still is like, that's the whole point. We worked as a team so that the instructor could deliver an amazing class and be present with his students. And we could be here or her, because we do have hers too, I should say. They're students. And we were here taking care of the things that needed to be taken care of, which was, yeah.
Cort Sharp (37:54)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (38:00)
Though I had forgotten about that. Thanks for that.
Cort Sharp (38:02)
Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's gotten easy, right? ⁓
Laura Kendrick (38:04)
Yeah, it does. But that's at the end of the day, that's how a good team is. I think that we can kind of end it with this thing of Mike has created this environment and it definitely comes from him. Like it's is rooted in the founder for us because we're a small team, small but mighty. But he it's rooted in his like engine of creativity, efficiency, and just love of innovation. And that has kind of
Cort Sharp (38:18)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (38:34)
folding that in with seeing all the people as humans, and with flaws and different talents and all those things and human interaction is messy and folding all of that in has actually been what has bred these amazing class experiences for our students and also this rewarding and fantastic team experience for the people behind the scenes as well. And I think the lesson
Cort Sharp (38:39)
Yes. Yep.
Laura Kendrick (38:59)
comes from that, that if we can fold those things in together and make space for humans to be humans and also have this amazing expectation of creativity and innovation, then it's all going to happen.
Cort Sharp (39:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I 100 % agree with that. I mean, it does come down to Mike and Mike is a fantastic leader. It's awesome. I also want to raise Mike, but.
Laura Kendrick (39:28)
Nice. Not passive aggressive at all. On that note.
Cort Sharp (39:29)
Yeah, you know. No. I'm just joking, right? We're able to have fun. We're able to joke around. But it does come down to leadership, right? And I think that's true on any team. And we have just we've been so fortunate to be able to experience it firsthand and go through this awesome transformation from being in person to fully remote, even in the class teaching stuff. And it's been really, really fun. really, really enjoyable. I, you know, you don't love every day. There are jobs, right? It's a job. But I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie. It has been fun. It has been enjoyable. But I don't look back on it and be like, wow, these last five years were just all terrible. No, it's we've had great leadership. We've had great interactions with with everyone. And I think
Laura Kendrick (40:05)
You should have just left it at really, really fun and enjoyable. Mic drop, goodbye.
Cort Sharp (40:28)
It's just come down to the people that we're working with and the people that we're engaging with consistently. And our leadership, Mike, has fostered an environment very, very well that is around fun, around communication, around enabling us to grow, to learn, to try new things, to move forward. And I really feel bad for companies who don't have that kind of leadership. that's, it's a tough spot to be in, but, I'm really, we're really blessed and really fortunate to, to be able to work here. And I hope this, this little peek behind the curtain, kind of encourages you to you, the listener, guess, whoever, whoever's out there to take a, take a little step back and say, okay, what, what am I doing as a leader within my sphere of influence to help my team be a little more human and embrace the humanity side of stuff? Not just pushing for more, we need more, more productivity, more AI, more everything, right? Yeah. Use AI, make it a tool, but just remember you're, building stuff for, for people. You're working with people all the time. And I think that's something that Mike has never forgotten and never will forget and never will let fall to the wayside that we're all people and we're all here working with each other.
Laura Kendrick (41:43)
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Well, on that amazing note, thank you, Cort, for joining me in this hijacking of the podcast, the Agile Mentors podcast. And we're going to turn it back over to Brian, who's going to walk you right on out.
Cort Sharp (41:54)
Happy to.

#149: How Agile Action Drives Strategy with Boris Gloger

What does it really mean to have a bias toward action and how do you build that into your culture without skipping strategy? Boris Gloger joins Brian Milner for a deep dive on experimentation, leadership, and the difference between tactical work and true strategic thinking.
Overview
In this conversation, Brian welcomes longtime Scrum pioneer, consultant, and author Boris Gloger to explore the tension between planning and doing in Agile environments.
Boris shares how a bias toward action isn’t about skipping steps—it’s about shortening the cycle between idea and feedback, especially when knowledge gaps or fear of mistakes create inertia.
They unpack why experimentation is often misunderstood, what leaders get wrong about failure, and how AI, organizational habits, and strategy-as-practice are reshaping the future of Agile work.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Boris Gloger
LinkedIn
Leaders Guide to Agile eBook
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This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Boris Gloger is a pioneering agile strategist and Germany’s first Certified Scrum Trainer, known for shaping how organizations across Europe approach transformation, strategy, and sustainable leadership. As founder of borisgloger consulting, he helps teams and executives navigate complexity—blending modern management, ethical innovation, and even AI—to make agility actually work in the real world.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one, the only Mr. Boris Glogger with us. Welcome in Boris.
Boris Gloger (00:11)
Yeah, thank you, Eurobrein, for having me on your show.
Brian Milner (00:14)
Very excited to have Boris here. For those of you who haven't crossed paths with Boris, Boris has been involved in the Scrum movement, I would say, since the very, very earliest days. He's a CST, he's a coach, he's an author, he's a keynote speaker. He had a book early called The Agile Fixed Price. He runs his own consultancy in Europe. And he has a new book that's been, that's going to be coming out soon called strategy as practice. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to have Boris on is because there's kind of this topic area that's been percolating that I've heard people talk about quite often. And I see some confused looks when the, when the topic comes up, you hear this term about having a bias toward action. And, we just wanted to kind of dive into that a little bit about what that means to have a bias toward action. and really how we can apply that to what we do in our day-to-day lives. So let's start there, Boris. When you hear that term, having a bias toward action, what does that mean to you?
Boris Gloger (01:12)
The fun thing is I was always in tune with the idea because people said my basic mantra at the beginning of doing agile was doing as a way of thinking. So the basic idea of agile for me was always experimentation, trying things out, breaking rules, not for the sake of breaking rules, but making to create a new kind of order. the basic idea is like we had with test-driven development at the beginning of all these agile approaches and we said, yeah, we need to test first and then we have the end in our mind, but we don't know exactly how to achieve that. So there is this kind of bias towards action. That's absolutely true. On the other hand, what I've always found fascinating was that even the classical project management methodologies said, Yeah, you have to have a plan, but the second step is to revise that plan. And that was always this, do we plan planning and reality together? And actually for me at the beginning, 35 years ago, was exactly that kind of really cool blend of being able to have a great vision and people like Mike and all these guys, they had always said, we need to have that kind of a vision, we need to know. Yeah, if the product owner was exactly that idea, you have to have that vision, but you really need to get the nitty-gritty details of, so to say, of doing this stuff.
Brian Milner (02:40)
Yeah, that's awesome. And the thing that kind of always pops to my head when I think about this is, we hear this term bias toward action and there's sort of this balance, I think a little bit between planning and action, right? I mean, you wanna plan, you wanna plan well, but you don't wanna over plan. You don't wanna waste too much time trying to come up with a perfect plan. You wanna... you want to do things, but you also don't want to be, you don't want to rush into things. So how do people find that balance between not just, you know, going off, you know, like we say in the U S half cocked a little bit, you know, like just not, not really not ready to really do the thing that you're going to do. Cause you didn't really invest the time upfront, but on the other hand, not spending so much time that you're trying to get the perfect plan before you do anything.
Boris Gloger (03:28)
You know, the problem, for me, the issue was solved by when I figured out that the teams typically struggle not to achieve, for instance, the sprint goal or the end or whatever they wanted to accomplish when they have not the right know-how. So it's a knowledge problem. So for instance, I don't know if this is still the case, but sometimes developers say, need to... to immerse myself with that I need to figure that out. I need to get the new framework before I can do something about estimates or something. So whenever you hear that, that you know that person that just tries to give you an estimate or the team that would like to come into a sprint goal or whatever it is, they are not really knowing what topic is about. It's a knowledge gap. And then people tend to go into that analysis paralysis problem. They don't know exactly what they need to do. So therefore they need to investigate. But by doing investigation, you start making that big elephant in the corner, larger and larger and larger and larger because you go that ishikara diagram, you have too many options. It's like playing chess with all options at hand and not have enough experience. What kind of gambit you would like to do. So everything's possible and by, because you have not enough experience, you say everything's possible, that creates too much of a planning hassle. And Agile, is the funny thing is, made us very transparent by just saying, okay, let's spend maybe two weeks. And then we figured out two weeks is too much. So let's do a spike, then we call it a spike. The basic idea was always to have a very short time frame, timeline where we try to bring our know-how to a specific problem, try to solve it as fast as possible. And the funny thing was actually was, as if I I confess myself that I don't know everything, or anything, sorry, that I don't know anything, then I could say, I give me a very short timeline, I could say I spend an hour. And today we have chat, CVT and perplexity and all that stuff. And then we could say, okay, let's spend an hour observation, but then we need to come up with a better idea of what we are talking about. So we can shorten the time cycle. So whenever I experienced teams or even organizations, when they start getting that planning in place, we have a knowledge problem. And a typical that is, is, or the classical mindset always says, okay, then we need to plan more. We need to make that upfront work. For instance, we need to have backlogs and we need to know all these features, even if we don't know what kind of features our client really would like to have. And the actual software problem is saying, okay, let's get out with something that we can deliver. And then we get feedback. And if we understand that our kind of the amount of time we spend is as cheap as possible. So like we use the tools that we have. We used to know how that we have. We try to create something that we can achieve with what we can do already, then we can improve on that. And then we can figure out, we don't know exactly what we might need to have to do more research or ask another consultant or bring in friends from another team to help us with that.
Brian Milner (06:46)
It's, sounds like the there's a, there's a real, kind of focus then from, from what I'm hearing from you, like a real focus on experimentation and, you know, that, that phrase we hear a lot failing fast, that kind of thing. So how, do you cultivate that? How do you, how do you get the organization to buy in and your team to buy into that idea of. Let's experiment, let's fail fast. And, and, we'll learn more from, from doing that than just, you know, endlessly planning.
Boris Gloger (07:12)
I think the URCHAR community made a huge mistake of embracing this failure culture all the time. We always tell we need to call from failure because we are all ingrained in a culture in the Western society at least, where we learned through school our parents that making failures is not acceptable.
Brian Milner (07:18)
Ha ha.
Boris Gloger (07:32)
And I came across Amy Atkinson and she did a great book to make clear we need to talk about failures and mistakes in a very different kind of way. We need to understand that there are at least three kinds of mistakes that are possible. One is the basic mistake, like a spelling error or you have a context problem in a specific program that you write or you... You break something because you don't know exactly how strong your material is. That is basic mistake. You should know that. That's trainable. The other is the kind of error that you create because the problem you try to solve has too many variables. So that's a complicated problem. You can't foresee all aspects that might happen in future. So typical an airplane is crashing. So you have covered everything you know so far. But then there's some specific problem that nobody could foresee. That's a failure. But it's not something that you can foresee. You can't prevent that. You try to prevent as best as possible. And that's even not an accepted mistake because sometimes people die and you really would like to go against it. So that's the second kind of mistakes you don't like to have. We really like to get out of the system. And then there's a third way kind of mistakes. And that is exactly what we need to have. We need to embrace that experimentation and even experimentation. mean, I started physics in school and in university and an experimental physicists. He's not running an experiment like I just throw a ball around and then I figure out what happens. An experiment is a best guess. You have a theory behind it. You believe that what you deliver or that you try to find out is the best you try to do. The Wright brothers missed their first airplane. I mean, they didn't throw their airplane in the balloon. Then it gets destroyed. They tried whatever they believed is possible. But then you need to understand as a team, as an organization, we have never done this before, so it might get broken. We might learn. For instance, we had once a project where we worked with chemists 10 years ago to splice DNA. So we wanted to understand how DNA is written down in the DNA sequence analyzer. And I needed to understand that we had 90 scientists who created these chemicals to be able to that you can use that in that synthesizer to understand how our DNA is mapped out. And we first need to understand one sprint might get results that 99 of our experience will fail. But again, management said we need to be successful. Yeah, but what is the success in science? I mean, that you know this route of action is not working, right? And that is the kind of failure that we would like to have. And I believe our Agile community need to tell that much more to our clients. It's not like, we need to express failure. No, we don't need to embrace failure. We don't want to have mistakes and we don't want to have complicated issues that might lead to the destroying of our products. need on the other hand, the culture, the experimentation to figure out something that nobody knows so far is acceptable, it's necessary. And then, edge our processes help us again by saying, okay, we can shorten the frame, we can shorten the time frame so that we can create very small, tiny experiments so that in case we are mistaken, Not a big deal. That was the basic idea.
Brian Milner (11:04)
That's a great point. That's really a great point because you're right. It's not failure in general, right? There are certain kinds of failures that we definitely want to avoid, but there's failure as far as I run an experiment. at that point, that's where we start to enter into this dialogue of it's not really a failure at that point. If you run an experiment and it doesn't turn out the way you expected, it's just an experiment that didn't turn out the way you expected.
Boris Gloger (11:30)
Basically, every feature we create in software or even in hardware, we have never done it before. So the client or our customers can't use it so far because it's not there. So now we ship it to the client and then he or she might not really use it the way that we believe it is. Is it broken? it a mistake? It was not a mistake. It was an experiment and now we need to adapt on it. And if we can create a system, that was all that was agile, I think was a bot. On very first start, if we can create a system that gives us feedback early. then that guessing can't be so much deviation or say in a different way, our investment in time and material and costs and money and is shortened as much as possible. So we have very small investments.
Brian Milner (12:13)
Yeah, that's awesome. I'm kind of curious too, because, you know, we, we, we've talked a little bit at the beginning about how, you know, this is part of this bias towards action as part of this entrepreneurial kind of mindset. And I'm curious in your, experience and your consultants experience that you've worked with big companies and small companies, have you noticed a difference in sort of that bias toward action? Uh, you know, that, that kind of. is represented in a different way in a big company versus a more small startup company.
Boris Gloger (12:48)
The funny thing is I don't believe it's a problem of large corporations or small, tiny little startups, even if we would say that tiny little startups are more in tune in making experiments. It's really a kind of what is my mindset, and the mindset is a strange word, but what is my basic habit about how to embrace new things. What is the way I perceive the world? Every entrepreneur who tries to create it or say it different way, even entrepreneurs nowadays need to create business plans. The basic ideas I can show to investors, everything is already mapped out. I have already clients. I have a proven business model. That is completely crazy because If it were a proof business model, someone else would have already done it, right? So obviously you need to come up with the idea that a kind of entrepreneur mindset is a little bit like I try to create something that is much more interesting to phrase it this way. by creating something, it's like art. You can't, can't... Plan art, I mean, it's impossible. I mean, you might have an idea and you might maybe someone who's writing texts or novels might create a huge outline. But on the other hand, within that outline, he needs to be creative again. And someone will say, I just start by getting continuous feedback. It's always the same. You need to create something to be able to observe it. that was for me, for me, that was the epiphany or the idea 25 years ago was, I don't know what your background is, but I wasn't a business analyst. Business analysts always wanted to write documents that the developer can really implement, right? And then we figured out you can't write down what you need to implement. There's no way of writing requirements in the way that someone else can build it. That's impossible. And even philosophers figure that out 100 years ago is written, Shanti said, you can't tell people what is the case. It's impossible. So, but what you can do, you can create something and you can have it in your review. And then you can start discussing about what you just created. And then you create a new result based on your observations and the next investment that you put in that. And then you create the next version of your product, your feature, your service, et cetera.
Brian Milner (15:12)
Hmm.
Boris Gloger (15:25)
And when we came back to the entrepreneur mindset and starting companies, Greaves created exactly that. He said, okay, let's use scrum to come up with as much possibilities for experimentation. And then we will see if it works. Then we can go on at that. And large corporations typically, They have on the one hand side, have too much money. And by having too much money, you would like to get an investment and they have a different problem. Typically large corporations typically needs to, they have already a specific margin with their current running products. And if you come up with a new business feature product, you might not get that as that amount of of revenue or profitability at the beginning. And therefore, can't, corporations have the problem that they have already running business and they are not seeing that they need to spend much, much more money on these opportunities. And maybe over time, that opportunity to make money and that's their problem. So this is the issue. It's not about entrepreneurial mindsets, it's about that. problem that you are not willing to spend that much money as long as you make much more money, it's the same amount of time on your current business. It happens even to myself, We are running a consulting company in Germany and Austria, and Austria is much smaller than Germany's tenth of the size. And if you spend one hour of sales in Austria, you don't make that much money in Austria than you make in Germany. this investment of one hour. Where should you focus? You will always focus on Germany, of course. means obvious.
Brian Milner (17:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Boris Gloger (17:10)
Does it make sense? Maybe I'm running so.
Brian Milner (17:14)
No, that makes sense. That makes sense entirely. And so I'm kind of curious in this conversation about action and having a bias toward action then, what do you think are some of the, in your experience in working with companies, what have you seen as sort of the common obstacles or barriers, whether that be psychological or. organizational, what do you find as the most common barriers that are preventing people from having that bias toward action?
Boris Gloger (17:44)
the they are they are afraid of the of that of tapping into the new room endeavor. So that was always my blind spot because I'm an entrepreneur. I love to do new things. I just try things out. If I've either reading a book, and there's a cool idea, I try to what can happen. But we are not And most organizations are not built that way that they're really willing to, when most people are not good in just trying things out. And most people would really like to see how it's done. And most people are not good in... in that have not the imagination what might be possible. That's the we always know that product adoption curve, that the early adopters, the fast followers, the early minority, the late minority. And these inventors or early adopters, they are the ones who can imagine there might be a brighter future if I try that out. And the other ones are the ones who need to see that it is successful. And so whenever you try implementing Scrum or design thinking or mob programming or I don't whatever it is, you will always have people who say it's not possible because I don't have, haven't seen it before. And I sometimes I compare that with how to how kids are learning. Some kids are learning because they see how what is happening. They just mirroring what they see. And some kids are start to invent the same image in imagination. And but both that we are all of us are able to do both. It's not like I'm an imaginary guy who's inventing all the time and I don't, people, maybe there's a preference and the organizations have the same preference. But typically that's the problem that I see in organizations is based on our society and our socialization, on our business behaviors and maybe the pressure of large corporations and all that peer pressure is
Brian Milner (19:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Boris Gloger (19:54)
The willingness to give people the room to try something out is the problem. Well, not the problem, it's the hinders us of being more innovative in organizations.
Brian Milner (19:59)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that brings to mind a good question then too, because this experimentation mindset is very, very much a cultural kind of aspect of an organization, which speaks to leadership. And I'm kind of curious from your perspective, if you're a leader, what kind of things can you do as a leader to encourage, foster, of really nurture? that experimentation mindset in your organization.
Boris Gloger (20:34)
Let's have a very simple example. Everybody of us now maybe have played with chat, CPT, Suno, perplexity and so on. So that's the school AI technology around the corner. And what happens now in organizations is exactly what happens 30 years ago when the internet came here. You have leadership or managers who say, that's a technology, I give it to the teams, they can figure out whatever that is. And the funny thing is, if you have a technology that will change the way we behave, so it's a social technology, a kind of shift, then I need to change my behavior, I need to change the way I do I'm doing things. Yeah, everybody of us has now an iPhone or an Android or whatever it is, but but we are using our mobiles in a completely different way than 30 years ago. And to lead us and manage us, we need to train ourselves first before we can help our teams to change. So the problem is that Again, a lot of Agilist talks about we need, first we need to change the culture of organizations to be able to do Agile and so on and so on. That's complete nonsense. But what we really need to is we need to have managers, team leads, it with team leads, to help them to do the things themselves because Agile, even in the beginning, now it's technology change, now it's AI, is something that changes the way we do our stuff. It's kind of habit. And we need to help them to seize themselves. Maybe they can only seize themselves by doing that stuff. And that goes back to my belief that leadership needs to know much more about the content of their teams and the way these teams can perform their tasks and the technology that is around to be able to thrive in organizations.
Brian Milner (22:40)
Yeah. Yeah. I love this discussion and I love that you brought up, you know, AI and how that's affecting things here as well. how do you think that's having a, do you think that's making it easier, harder? How do you think AI is, is kind of influencing this bias toward action mentality?
Boris Gloger (22:59)
Yeah, it depends on if you are able to play. mean, because the funny thing is, it's a new kind of technology. really knows what all these tools can do by themselves. And it's new again. It's not like I have done AI for the next last 10 years and I know exactly what's possible. So we need to play. So you need to log in to adjust it. Yesterday, I tried something on Zulu. I created the company song in 10 seconds. I went to ChatGVT, I said I need a song, I need lyrics for a company song. These are the three words I would like to have, future, Beurus Kluger, and it needs to be that kind of mood. ChatGVT created the song for my lyrics, then they put the lyrics into the... And they created a prompt with ChatGVT and then put that prompt in my lyrics into Sono and Sono created that song within 10 seconds. I mean, it's not get the Grammy. Okay. It's not the Grammy. But it was, I mean, it's, it's, it's okay. Yeah. It's a nice party song. And now, and just playing around. And that is what I would like to see in organizations, that we start to play around with these kind of technologies and involve everybody. But most people, the very discussions that I had in the last couple of weeks or months was about these tools shall do the job exactly the same way as it is done today. So it's like... I create that kind of report. Now I give that to Chet Chibati and Chet Chibati shall create that same report again. That is nonsense. It's like doing photography in the old days, black and white. And now I want to have photography exactly done the same way with my digital camera. And what happened was we used the digital cameras changed completely the way we create photography and art. changed completely, right? And that is the same thing we need to do with ChatGV team. And we need to understand that we don't know exactly how to use it. And then we can enlarge and optimize on one hand the way we are working, for instance, creating 20 different versions for different social media over text or something like that, or 20 new pictures. But if I would like to express myself, so, and... and talk about my own behavior or my own team dynamic and what is the innovation in ourselves, then we need to do ourselves. And we can use, that is the other observation that we made. The funny thing that goes back to the knowledge issue, the funny thing is that teams typically say, I don't know if it's in the US, but at least in my experience, that we still have the problem within teams. that people believe this is my know-how and that is your know-how and I'm a specialist in X or Y set. So they can't talk to each other. But if you use maybe chat GPT and all these tools now, they can bridge these know-how gaps using these tools. And suddenly they can talk to each other much faster. So they get more productive. It's crazy. It's not like I'm now a fool with a tool. I can be a fool and the tool might help me to overcome my knowledge gaps.
Brian Milner (26:20)
Now this is awesome. I know that your book that's coming out, Strategy is Practice, talks about a lot of these things. Tell us a little bit about this book and kind of what the focus is.
Boris Gloger (26:30)
the basic idea when I started doing working on the on strategies, we be in the the actual community, we talk about strategy as what is a new idea of being OKR. So OKR equals strategy, and that is not true. And I came up with this basic idea, what is the basic problem of of strategic thinking and we are back to the in most organizations, we still believe strategy is the planning part and then we have an implementation part. And years ago, I came across a very basic, completely different idea that said every action is strategy. Very simple example. You have the strategy in a company that you have a high price policy. Everything you do is high price. But then you are maybe in a situation where you really need money, effort, revenue issues, liquidation, liquidation problems. Then you might reduce your price. And that moment, your strategy is gone. just your obviously and you have now a new strategy. So your actions and your strategies always in line. So it's not the tactic for the strategy, but tactic is strategy. And now we are back to Azure. So now we can say, okay, we need kind of a long-term idea. And now we can use for creating the vision. For instance, you list the V2MOM framework for creating your vision. But now I need to have a possibility to communicate my strategic ideas. And in the Azure community, we know how to do this. We have plannings and we have dailies and we have reviews and retrospectives. So now I can use all these tools. I can use from the bookshelf of Azure tools. I can use maybe OKRs to create a continuous cycle of innovation or communication so that I get that everybody knows now what is the right strategy. And I can feed back with the reviews to management. that the strategy approach might not work that way that they believed it's possible experimentation. And then and I added two more ideas from future insight or strategic foresight, some other people call it. So the basic idea is, how can I still think about the future in an not in the way of that I have a crystal ball. But I could say, how can I influence the future, but I can only influence the future if I have an idea what might be in future. It's like a scenario. Now you can create actions, power these kind of scenarios that you like, or what you need to prevent a specific scenario if you don't like that. And we need a third tool, that was borrowed from ABCD risk planning, was the basic idea, how can I get my very clear a very simple tool to get the tactics or the real environmental changes like suddenly my estimates might not be correct anymore or my suggestions or beliefs about the future might not get true in the future. So I need kind of a system to feed back reality in my strategy. it's a little bit like reviewing all the time the environment. And if you put all that together, then you get a very nice frame how to use strategy on a daily practice. It's not like I do strategy and then have a five-year plan. No, you have to do continuously strategy. And I hope that this will help leaders to do strategy. I mean, because most leaders don't do strategy. They do tactic kind of work. and they don't spend They don't spend enough time in the trenches. to enrich their strategies and their thinking and their vision. because they detach strategy and implementation all the time. That's the basic idea.
Brian Milner (30:30)
That's awesome. That sounds fascinating. And I can't wait to read that. That sounds like it's going to be a really good book. So we'll make sure that we have links in our show notes to that if anyone wants to find out more information about that or learn more from Boris on this topic. Boris, can't thank you enough for making time for coming on. This has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you for coming on the show.
Boris Gloger (30:40)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you very much for having me on your show and appreciate that your time and your effort here. Make a deal for the, it's very supporting for the agile community. Thank you for that.
Brian Milner (30:57)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

#148: What It Really Takes to Lead Change That Sticks with Sherri Robbins

Can you lead meaningful change without burning people out—or yourself? Sherri Robbins thinks so, and she’s sharing how she’s done it in high-stakes, high-complexity environments (with her sanity intact).
Overview
In this episode, Sherri Robbins joins Scott Dunn to talk about what it actually takes to lead large-scale change across teams, departments, and vendors without losing sight of your values—or your people.
From agile leadership lessons and real-world mistakes to personality-aware management and learning how (and when) to let teams fail forward, this conversation goes far beyond frameworks. If you’ve ever tried to implement something new and wondered why it didn’t stick, this one’s for you.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Sherri Robbins
Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Chip Heath & Dan Heath
Start With Why by Simon Sinek
Five Lessons For Agile Leaders
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.
Sherri Robbins is a 20+ year veteran in the medical device industry, blending strategic execution with deep regulatory and quality systems expertise to lead enterprise-wide transformations. She’s a thought leader in Agile implementation, known for aligning cross-functional teams, building psychological safety, and driving change that actually sticks.

#147: The Power of Quiet Influence with Casey Sinnema

How do you lead change when you’re not the boss? Casey Sinnema shares what it takes to build trust, influence outcomes, and make Monday feel a little less dreadful.
Overview
What happens when you give a self-proclaimed utility player the freedom to poke holes in broken systems and lead cross-functional change without official authority?
In this episode, Scott chats with Casey Sinema about navigating ambiguity, building trust without a title, and leading impactful change through curiosity, clarity, and a deep understanding of what people actually need.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Casey Sinnema
Wolf Pack by Abby Wombach
The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins
Micromanagement Log
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.
Casey Sinnema is a self-described utility player who’s built a career by asking great questions, poking holes in broken systems, and leading meaningful change across teams—without ever needing the official title to do it. With a background in accounting and a talent for cross-functional problem solving, she brings curiosity, empathy, and real-world savvy to every challenge she tackles.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Scott Dunn (00:01)
Well, welcome everyone to another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am your takeover, not your normal host, of Brian Miller, who's done a smash up job over a hundred plus episodes if you haven't checked those out. But part of the podcast takeover was not only a fresh voice, but also perspective and a lot of what I typically focus on for the people who know me. On leadership and culture and leading change. And I thought of no one better that I'd rather talk to about some of this. Casey Sinnema and I'll give you a little bit of introduction about who she is, what she does. Maybe also I think it'd be fascinating Casey on how you yourself in the role that you have. I think it's kind of a cool role, at least on paper. You can flesh that out a little bit more but I'll hand off to you. Tell us a little about yourself.
Casey (00:46)
Yeah, hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, so I currently am most often referred to as a utility player. And I'm still trying to figure out my elevator speech for how I talk about what I do because my role, my title is manager, which doesn't say much, right? And I actually don't do a function, but the easiest way to talk about it is I'm a project manager of sorts. I'm involved in a wide variety of projects from a varying level of involvement, from leading the project to leading the change to being a key stakeholder to just being the voice to leaders or executives or that type of thing. So yeah, I am a little bit of everything. And I got here on accident. I have...
Scott Dunn (01:32)
I was...
Casey (01:34)
You know, way back in the day when I was, you know, doing the like, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? I'm like, I just want a marketable skill. So I have a business degree and I went into accounting and I quickly became the troubleshooter. So I would go into a company, troubleshoot, fix the process, fix something broken, and then find myself in another company doing the same thing. And, so throughout my career, I've just sort of built this unique set of skills that allow me to poke holes in processes. and help companies fix them and then kind of find the next thing. So that's just kind of how I wound up here. I've been at my current company for almost a decade, which is going to be a record for me. And, but I'm still doing the same thing. I'm moving around the company and finding new places to, you know, rock the boat a little bit.
Scott Dunn (02:20)
Cool. Very cool. Yeah. It does sound like you have a number of things on your place to where that makes kind of expand on that a little bit and where you comfortably share those stories as we go through some of this because there's a lot, there's a lot more underneath based on what Casey shared before. And I love it that you found yourself like a happy accident and I guess have enough challenges and learning and growth there as long as they move you around that you're, you know, you need to be working on that are meaningful. things to be working on.
Casey (02:51)
Yeah, absolutely. That's the biggest thing, right? Is to like find work that you find valuable and that has an impact on the people around you, which is, know, squarely aligned with my values.
Scott Dunn (03:01)
Well, you touched on one thing that I know a number of other people could relate to and I could too as well as the kind of troubleshoots process can just easily see that things aren't working at a larger view. Some of that. maybe add on a little bit. What is it like about your role? For those who are kind of thinking they're in quasi space, they can hear you talk about that role and like, hey, that sounds like me too. What are the points of that different projects, different things you're involved with that that's what really lights you up?
Casey (03:27)
Yeah, I, it's so interesting because a lot of us find that the things that we're good at are the things that, you know, give us energy and that motivate us, right? I happen to be uniquely skilled at poking holes in things, including in my own life. So it works in my personal life as well. I could just sort of see things from different perspectives and find the gaps. And so it just sort of on accident. I think what's interesting is
Scott Dunn (03:43)
You Hmm.
Casey (03:53)
throughout my career and throughout my life, the biggest challenge has been to hone that skill for good, right? To lead with kindness and to manage my expectations along with the expectations of the world around me and troubleshoot the things or poke holes in things that need holes poked in instead of like everything. You know what mean?
Scott Dunn (04:15)
I love that. Two things that I want to, I guess, add on a little bit more there. One, you mentioned something and the other thing is I think you might just put out there like, same thing from different perspectives. I imagine for the people, we've all been around folks who just they only think their way. And you're just kind of reflecting on that. But Keith, it sounds like you can go into a meeting and you can hear three different state views and you can genuinely understand from their perspective why that's important to them or why that's a problem to them, right? If I'm hearing you.
Casey (04:42)
Yeah, absolutely. That's really key in all of the different types of projects that I've played a part in, right? Like hearing things from different people's perspectives and really understanding what they're looking to get, what they need and what's in it for them and being able to connect those things across stakeholders.
Scott Dunn (04:59)
Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah, but looking for commonality, alignment, et cetera. I do think there's a specialness, and we've talked about it a bit, like in the facilitation class, that looking for those folks having common and generating alignment is a unique gift that we just don't see a lot in corporate people kind of lobby for what they want. And actually, it's, it would be an afterthought to think about other people's perspectives and yet who draws different areas of the company together who are to get some new about the door or whatever like that. So you're kind of touching on that, which I think is really powerful. Is there anything that you see as like a go-to mindset that you bring in those situations or go to like tools that you're kind of using, whether that's things you're doing in writing down or in mural or even just how where your head is at when you walk into some of those meetings where you feel they have different perspectives and on the same page, you're supposed to walk out of that session on the same page.
Casey (05:51)
Yeah, the first one is to sort of leave my ego at the door, right? What I think is the right thing can't come in the door with me, right? Like I, of course I'm influencing, right? Where I feel like it matters. But it's not, I'm probably not the decision maker and the people that are not on the same page, when they need to get aligned, they need to be able to get there on their own. So what I think is the right way, I got to leave it at the door. So that's my number one thing.
Scott Dunn (05:57)
heheheheh.
Casey (06:18)
And then the next thing I do is just really stay curious, ask lots of questions, actively listen, model that active listening behavior so that everybody else is also actively listening. That's a big thing. And really just sort of helping people find a common language, I think, is really important. So I do a lot of restating what I'm hearing so that other people can maybe hear it from a different set of words and connect it.
Scott Dunn (06:29)
Hahaha
Casey (06:42)
more readily to the way that they're thinking about the topic.
Scott Dunn (06:45)
Yeah, you say these as if they're like, I mean those are short little pithy statements, but boy, powerful. I think it reflects an attitude beginning with what he said as the ego is like, we might know a whole lot, we gotta leave that at the door. Just at work, awesome. Here and you say something, I'm making notes like this would be good in life too, right? In personal life and relationships, stay curious, active. Don't assume that the way you see it is reality, right? So, I think that's super. The other thing you mentioned though was about Go ahead.
Casey (07:17)
I will say I'm better at it at my job than in my personal life because,
Scott Dunn (07:23)
Of course, I think, yeah, for everyone listening, they're like, me too. Why can't I do this? I can tell some stories. So the other one, though, you should just poke holes as if like, it's this little thing we're doing. But there might be something inside. I think I might be able to relate that is driving perhaps towards this isn't running as well as it could, or this isn't running. I think we know that, or this could be better. Something inside you that that you feel is churning, that you're seeing holes no matter what that is, if it's a small process, large process, a team, multiple teams. Tell me a little bit more about what does that mean to you when you say poke holes in things? What's running through your mind?
Casey (08:01)
Yeah, it's complex, right? Because sometimes it's really easy. This is broken. you know, right? Or there's a bottleneck, something that's really like you can, it's data driven, you can see in the data where something is not working well, that those are the easy ones, right? And you can just start asking sort of the five whys or the finding the root cause of what's happening there.
Scott Dunn (08:06)
Those are the easy ones, yes.
Casey (08:26)
But in the case where there's friction or there appears to be barriers or there's just this. any kind of challenge or even when there's not a challenge, quite frankly, I have this unique ability to like listen across people and across like data and technology. That's a weird thing to say is listen across technology, but I sort of just find where things are misconnected or disconnected and start to ask questions there. And so I can find something that maybe isn't working as well as it should without anybody else noticing which.
Scott Dunn (08:35)
Yeah.
Casey (08:59)
I've learned I need to be careful with.
Scott Dunn (09:01)
That's great. So at least the next question was any hard lessons, anything so you could do a redo on that one that you could pass on so someone else doesn't have to learn the hard way from Casey's experience.
Casey (09:11)
Ha yeah. Everything I learned, I learned the hard way. So if you feel like that's what you're doing, you're not alone. Yeah, the thing that I have learned probably the most often, and I will learn it several more times in my career, I'm sure, is when I think I have found something, go make sure it's true before you start to really socialize it. So like, I'm going to go ask the question of the expert.
Scott Dunn (09:20)
Ha Whoa.
Casey (09:42)
before I bring it up because maybe I'm not seeing it from all of the right angles or maybe I don't understand exactly what it's doing or quite frankly maybe I'm missing some context. And so really talking and building relationships with people who are experts on the topic or in the field is really kind of where I start.
Scott Dunn (10:00)
was great, great period. the number of times we miss out on relationships, especially in that one, really key.
Casey (10:00)
And. Yeah.
Scott Dunn (10:08)
I think I'd add to that though. sometimes I'll phrase it as rather wait to be sure than lose capital because if I go out saying things that aren't true. So sometimes we'll jump in on the outing side and they'll be like, why haven't you gotten yet? And I'll be clear, like, I'd rather wait and be sure than hurry and be wrong. And then we got to that mess before we get back to the work we're supposed to be doing. And sometimes it's a while to pick that up, depending on who got affected by We'll put out there sometimes innocuously, we thought, well, here's the numbers results. And someone's like, that's actually not correct. But now everyone knows we have now we have a PR problem, something like that. So I'm not alone in that. I've been there. That's a tough one. But also on the coin, though, what would you point to as wins if you look back like that's talking about? That's why this is important. That's what you feel good about.
Casey (10:54)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think from a win perspective, the, a really good example, I'm going to go way back in the day. I had a, a chance to work, in a motorcycle dealership and we had huge, was, you know, weird economic times, right? And so there's weird financial things happening in this, you know, motorcycle dealership company and, and, everybody's just trying to stay afloat and You find the like the friction between either the mechanic shop and the, the sales shop. And when you find those and you can solve those problems and make the experience smooth for the, for the client, right. For the customer and make that like walk in the door experience consistent and smooth. This in this case was just people, right? It wasn't even technology. wasn't really a process. It was just people. And the biggest wins are when like. the people start to notice. And then what happens is everybody's life gets better and everybody has more fun doing whatever it is that they're doing. And it just changes the vibe.
Scott Dunn (12:08)
I love that. I love that. I do believe very much like the work that we could be doing here. People enjoy their work more people enjoy coming to work. doesn't have to be a place that people don't want to be in or watching the class. I love you touching on that's great.
Casey (12:21)
Yeah, there's a balance there, right? Like, because they call it work for a reason. It's a job. We don't love everything that we do all of the time. But, you know, are we doing the things that we can do to make life good for ourselves and for others?
Scott Dunn (12:33)
Yes, so nice segue because what I feel like I've learned later in my career, we'll just phrase it that way, that the importance of self-care, taking care of ourselves so that we have the energy and attitude to keep doing work that we're doing, especially if you're a leading changer, in some ways you're a change artist trying to bring that about, change agent, it can be taxing. So are there things along the way that are either You just know a good way that you take care of yourself could be learning, could be space, could be the road you carry, or that you actually do to protect yourself and that work-life balance emotionally, mentally. you aren't kind of aware of, what does it look like to do good self-care and help make sure you're taking care of yourself to deliver good value in the workplace. Share what that means to you and maybe some of the things that you do.
Casey (13:21)
Yeah, it's so important, right? Like I am also not in the early stages of my career and still learning how to take care of myself and protect myself and, you know, build good boundaries, right? I, yes, yes. So I have good personal routines, right? Like I do yoga, I meditate. I'm a big fan of podcasts and.
Scott Dunn (13:31)
Hahaha Right. Boundaries is a good word, yes.
Casey (13:46)
I'm a learner, so I'm always learning. Maybe there's a boundary there too, like how much can you self-improve before it becomes, I don't know, toxic? But when it comes to boundaries, really it's, I start with the relationships, right? Like at work, making sure that my expectations are clear and that of my leadership chain is clear no matter what job I'm in.
Scott Dunn (13:47)
Hmm. you
Casey (14:11)
and setting boundaries that are clearly expressed so that I can protect myself and my personal life and that balance, and I can deliver the way that I'm expected to deliver. And that just makes life easier for me.
Scott Dunn (14:23)
Super, super, super, super. I'm thinking there's a lot of people. I it's a ways back. We cover accommodative and assertive, you know, as far as power styles and the cowl. And what's been fascinating for all these years, most people are all on the accommodative side. When I hear you say something like, hey, the expectations clear or use the word bad, that sounds like someone who has a balance of, no, I'm there for people, but I don't overextend myself to where I no good.
Casey (14:23)
Thank
Scott Dunn (14:50)
I burned something like that. So I think that's really great for everyone to hear. It hurt to define the relationship with make sure your expectations are clear for me. And then sometimes, you know, there's someone else that could take that on or might play this role, etc. But sometimes we're so helpful that we overload ourselves and actually don't do good job. We do, you know, average job on a lot of things instead of a job on a few and they could have found maybe someone else. think that's awesome. You said podcasts, there other ways, is that your way of learning? there other things that you, as far as what, for the learning side?
Casey (15:26)
Yeah, so books are my go-to. I'm somebody who does a lot of highlighting and note taking and flagging in books, because I'm always going back to them. And I love to learn things that are sort of outside of my lane, if you will. It's kind of how I got involved in Agile. I have a business degree in finance, and Agile doesn't really play into that until it does, right? And so I started to like, I'm curious about that, or I'm curious about Six Sigma or those types of things. And so I just sort of go find them and take the nuggets that apply directly to me and put the other ones on the shelf for like when it does apply to me, if you know what I mean. Um, so I just, I'm a learner, so I'm always looking to, to, to learn new things. I'll be frank, podcasts for me, I'm not learning things. I'm entertaining myself.
Scott Dunn (16:20)
I try, I try to really be focused to get, I like listening, but yeah, the actually applying is not as much. I'm definitely same about I'm a higher. Someone said the difference in studying is the pin. So I'm always like, unless I'm marking it up, am I really digging into this book or, or Kendall? So I'm to hear I'm not alone on that one. So I want to shift a little bit because some of what we've done is leading change. think the conversation we had were around.
Casey (16:38)
Absolutely.
Scott Dunn (16:45)
So moving around from just you to the broader culture, how would you describe what a great culture like or feels like? Maybe some of us haven't even been in a great company so they don't know. They can't picture, imagine what that could be like. And you've been to a number of places with different roles. What's good culture, great culture look like in your opinion?
Casey (17:06)
Yeah, I think that it's gotta be a cliche out there. I'm pretty sure I've seen it on a meme, but good culture is defined by how you feel on Sunday night, right? Like if you're not dreading going into work on Monday, right? Like you probably are in a culture that's a good fit for you because I think culture doesn't have a one size fits all perspective. Like big companies, small companies, different types of work, different groups of people. sort of lend themselves to different kinds of culture. I've been in companies where the culture is great for me and everybody else is miserable. And companies where the culture is great for everybody else and I'm just not a good fit. So I think that in general, good culture is... I talk about it in this like self-awareness perspective. If the culture itself is a little bit self-aware, then it is what they say it is. So if you say your culture is one thing and everybody agrees, including the culture, including the behaviors of what's expected in the environment, if all of those things are aligned, the culture is probably good, even if there are people who aren't good fits for it. I don't know if that answers your question. That's my perspective.
Scott Dunn (18:03)
Hehehehe That's great. Oh, it's it's better. That one's a good wrap up now. Like that really to me, it's a bit of a mic drop because it's so good. It's simple. But you're right. How you feel on Sunday night? A ton about what's happening with you and the job you have and what's happening around you. Absolutely. And that different like sometimes it is just a fit because a lot of people can be excited about it, but you're bothered by it or might rub you wrong. And I know we've gone through the values in the class as well. I've been at companies where we're absolutely about get stuff done and that's fine. But it's kind of a burnout. I love the very collaborative, but sometimes I'm like, man, I want to get stuff done. I'm getting frustrated that we're like, we really connect and talk a lot. I don't see stuff happening. So you're right. Obviously, you know, some people are sensitive to that. And that last piece about like the behavior. it should be considered. And I do sometimes see like leadership will say something or there'll be things on the walls. But you look around like, yeah, I don't actually think anyone's actually behaving that way. It's like an aspirational vibe about what they want to be, but they're not really doing it. So I think all those lenses are giving are right. And they're simple. Someone can look around and just see what you're saying. And then you make their own calculations of that. Some of the good. Some of that's a bit too.
Casey (19:26)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Scott Dunn (19:32)
In the sense like either either change it for the better or You know what I mean? Like I don't want to be the person that's been there seven like this place is terrible What are you doing? What why have you been here 17 years hating it? I don't
Casey (19:32)
you Yeah, it's really important that we're honest with ourselves as much as our companies are honest with us, right? Like, what do I need from my job? What do I need from my career? And am I at a place that can support that?
Scott Dunn (19:45)
Good. Yes. Yeah, and and i'll serious in this case. I think there is some point where people I hear them And i'll just straight up. I don't think leadership has any intention to changing in the way you're describing Right. So in the end like so what would you like to do? And it's not even like it's a bad thing really. It's just like that's like It's a bit when you said that part some people are so passionate they forget like Yeah, and you're wrong like you could be wanting this coming to change in a way. It's not who they are or what they're about or you're Found by 80 people who are actually quite good with the way things The fact that you're so passionate doesn't mean you're right. It might just mean this is not a good fit. So don't stay here trying to change everything, which probably wouldn't work anyways if that's, you know, they're comfortable with what are. It's almost like in self-preservation, just say, I just need to exercise my agency and there's not a good guy. What's that song? There Ain't No Good Guy, There Ain't No Bad Guy. It's me and you and we just disagree. You move on to another and they'll be happier somewhere else is what I would think. So I think that's a good perspective. People can get past space about, you know, and agile and all that and then rail against something that's an immovable in some organizations.
Casey (21:08)
Yeah, being aware of the things that you can control, the things that you can't control, is really the crux of your own sanity, if you will.
Scott Dunn (21:16)
Yeah, it's a good way of saying it, Yeah, and you can control a lot of that. You can influence it. can influence it. Let me follow up on that because clearly, in my opinion, seems like you've that about bringing about change when you don't necessarily have authority. You can't dictate to some of these folks. What do you think is a key aspect of being successful around influence or people who... I get asked this all the time, how do we influence, how do we manage up, et cetera. What would you prefer as your thoughts on that about influencing others?
Casey (21:50)
Yeah, I actually listened to a podcast recently about leading without influence. one of the key comments, I guess I am also learning through podcasts, I guess. But one of the comments in the podcast was there are people who lead with a hammer, people who lead with influence. And I kind of love that because I haven't been a people leader in more than a decade.
Scott Dunn (21:55)
There you go. So they are some good.
Casey (22:13)
which means I don't have any authority, right? I lead all of my influence. All of my leadership is through influence. And the way that I approach that is I start with. It's a, it's a gooey word, but empathy, understanding the people that I'm talking to and working with and understanding what they need and what their challenges are, and then meeting them where they are. Right. The easiest way to gain influence with. Most people, is to build trust and to build trust, need to build relationships. And so I would say 90 % of my influence comes first from relationships. And probably the other 10 % comes from my ability to stand up and say, I was wrong when I did something wrong or when my perspective was incorrect and when I behaved outside my values, like just owning it up when I'm like,
Scott Dunn (22:59)
Wow.
Casey (23:04)
Yeah, I was having a bad day. I apologize. There's a lot of trust that comes from that kind of vulnerability.
Scott Dunn (23:11)
Yeah, which is not easy to do not easy to do But I've been in meetings where I like I know it like I don't play this year But I like things so in some ways people look at influence about how we phrase things or how we present but you're just saying like look happy build a real relationship Have some humility if you're willing to say we're wrong. So people know you'll also that when you're wrong or made of your core element of strength or something like that. think that's a real nice, everyone, if you think about that, that's not out of any of us to say, you know what, I'm going to try to be more honest and authentic and have some empathy and try to listen.
Casey (23:45)
Absolutely. It also helps to be able to connect the dots across different people and what they need and the strategy of whatever project you're working on so that you can connect the change to something that is it like what's in it for me, right? So what's in it for the people that you're talking to and being able to connect those things. So it's not just relationships and empathy, right? That's the soft stuff. It's that ability to really critically think about what it is you're driving change for.
Scott Dunn (24:08)
Mm-hmm.
Casey (24:12)
and connecting it to how each of these different stakeholders can benefit.
Scott Dunn (24:18)
Yeah, the part about connecting the dots and this is one thing if I'm ever in a meeting and I feel like I'm not getting it I actually will pause into my head. I'm thinking What is this person's concerns? And if I can't if I can't clear that I'd probably need to ask more questions but for any of us in those meetings just kind of go around through those stakeholders the people sitting around the desk or on the zoom and quick like in a sentence or two what what would be important to them? What are they? What's the win or what's the pain? But if you don't feel like you can articulate, then the good thing is you have to see that asking questions around that is never a problem because they're actually share because you're basically asking them about yourself. Tell me what's important to you. And they would like to share that. And it doesn't hurt to double check that. So I love what you're saying about connected dots. It won't be necessary that they're saying what you're listening and watching. I also watch what they react to. So something might jump out that would be outside of their say their role. but it's about people and there's an aspect that they really do care about how their people feel, not just the, this process is important in terms of our strategy and the technology we're using, but it might come out like, well, all their people would be really excited to put their hands on that new technology too. But they're not gonna say that because that sounds like that's a weak reason to be for a project, but you know it's important to them because they lead those people or that person. So I like what you're saying, connect the dots, think about those perspectives, because the empathy is gonna help them to connect in the dots, right? more is emotional than the logic of that stuff. So think that's great. Really, really great. On this, I believe you're remote, correct? Partially? Okay. ⁓ fully. Okay. Let's talk about that small. It hasn't come up in the last five years, but let's talk remote. So from your experience, it's always a big topic to me. I do care about this. I think we deal with a lot, every company, because some people at least that are remote, or certainly partial remote,
Casey (25:45)
I am. Fully.
Scott Dunn (26:05)
What's your thoughts on what to be worried about and what to make that successful? you're seeing more and more almost like these two sides of the aisle, maybe some aspect of demanding people come back. And yet you have a whole generation who can't buy a house. So I'm figuring out where's the balance of remote work. So yeah, your thoughts on remote work, how to make it successful scene.
Casey (26:27)
Yeah, I mean, I have two different ways I could approach this, right? I have the personal thing that what works for me part, right? But as somebody who is often having these conversations with people who are in various buckets of people who are, know, partially remote, fully remote, fully in the office, that kind of a thing, I find that what I think is less relevant every single day. I for sure feel I have a lot of privilege.
Scott Dunn (26:33)
Mm-hmm.
Casey (26:50)
being fully remote. Like that's really cool because it's good for me. I'm at a spot in my career where it makes sense. I'm good at building relationships in lots of different kinds of ways, including through, you know, zoom meetings and that type of thing. But I don't think that there's a right answer. I think that the each company and each team and each group of people need to find what works best for them. and make that happen. I see real benefit to being together, especially when you're early in your career or when you're doing something that you need a whiteboard. I mean, I'm pretty good at Mural. I'm pretty good at using the whiteboard in the Zoom meeting, but there's no replacement for standing at a whiteboard with a bunch of stickies and flowing out process. So I just don't...
Scott Dunn (27:33)
That's so true. You're so right.
Casey (27:40)
I don't know that there's a right answer. And I think that different size companies have different complexity of making that decision. And it sort of goes back to that comment we were making before. Like, if it isn't a good fit for you, find something that is. You know, I don't know. That's my thought. That's my thought.
Scott Dunn (28:00)
Yeah, true. Makes sense. For the folks that are managing or leading these remote work, are things that they do to make that go better in their context.
Casey (28:12)
Absolutely. are ways to, especially if you have hybrid, it even gets more complex, right? All virtual is the easiest way of virtual, right? Because then everybody's always virtual and you're always on Zoom and you're always on Slack and whatever. That's for sure the easiest way to manage teams that are virtual. When you have that hybrid space, you've got that opportunity to be in a conference room or in a huddle group or in the cafeteria. and on Zoom meetings, and it gets kind of funky, right? Because sometimes you can't hear, or you have those water cooler conversations. The key really is to have what I found is a good working agreement, right? Like, what types of communication are we going to have? How are we going to do that? What happens when we had a really great conversation in the break room? How do we communicate that to the rest of the team who wasn't there? And really just sort of build team trust through a good quality executed working agreement. And sometimes that takes a little bit more effort from the leader or even from every individual, right? But that's part of that culture, right?
Scott Dunn (29:16)
Right. I think the folks you make me think that's personally in a meeting and it's good that I try to get the groups together in these different locations as they're talking. I can't tell. I talking. I don't know these. I don't know them all that well. So I can't I can't tell by voice yet. If these are different groups are working with each other. The thing is, look, that person's kind of off camera or either they're on camera. They're so far back. Is that is their mouth moving? Is there a delay? I can't tell. So that sets the connection. I'm surprised for me as a more of a relator, how much it becomes a problem like nothing beats in person. So at least get that regularly. get in person. There was another client that saying that very same thing. Like they love it when we all get back together. And so they kind of have their cadence of pulling the whole group better. Could be like you're off site, could be all hands could be, but I think those opportunities to keep connection. I do like remote. I do think you have a good point about depending on the maturity of the career. Some people just know like I know I got to take care of these biopsy that they've noticed other XYZ. So they do too. So if they're new in their career, they may not even catch that I should be probably working. what is this at home on the zoom and in their PJs or something like that. I think it's a good point. Look at those and also the work. The fact that you would take that to the team and say, what do you all think is very empowering. You have an open conversation around what they all think and definitely there's a assumptions that people are making about what it should be, et cetera, but they those explicit and they kind of carry that around with them a little. Right. So that's a yeah, really nice nugget on that. That's everyone for sure. So last thing I'm to add a little bit on the back on leading change. So in this case, it could be remote, could be these other projects that we'll try to adapt. I think you'd say this earlier about there's no company that's not going through this crazy time of change right now. When it comes to change, have you seen something that's helpful, especially if it's a more significant change, you gave some good fundamentals around influence and trust and relationship, empathy, et cetera. Are there other aspects on how that change is rolled out or a process change or the groups that are leading the change that you've seen be like more systemically just successful aside that people might change, but the way we handle change is done this way. That you think there's a tip or two out there that would help out. They're trying to kick off, you know, a new way of working. We're trying to refresh remote policies or how they work, Because a lot of people in the middle of change. Have you seen overarching themes about how this lead that you found have been more successful?
Casey (31:57)
Yeah, think, gosh, it's the hardest thing, right? Like figuring out a way to roll out change across teams is the most challenging thing that I've ever done. And I've been doing it for a long time. And I'm always learning new ways and new ways not to do things and all that jazz, right? I have this little nugget that I got from a mentor.
Scott Dunn (32:11)
Hahaha, yeah.
Casey (32:24)
20 years ago almost, and he's a motorcycle rider. And when you ride a motorcycle, the thing that you do to go on a corner is to turn your head, right? Turn your head to get to where you're going. And the non-motorcycle sort of connection to that is the what's my plan. And so really understanding what the plan is so that you can very clearly articulate what it is you're doing at each phase of the change. If you're prepping people for change, what's the plan? If you're starting to design a project, what's the plan? And just get really clear with where you're going, what the expectations are, what each individual person's role is, and be explicit about it because we're all dealing with a lot of things coming at us all the time. And if you're leading with kindness and you're saying, okay, your part of this is to simply accept the change. That's not condescending, that's empowering. That tells that person that like, this decision has been made, I gotta get myself there, and this person's here to help me get there. And so just being really clear about it, that's the biggest thing for me that I've seen that is successful. It's hard to do though, because that's a lot of people and a lot of
Scott Dunn (33:36)
Yeah. Well, yes, that's why it makes it so surprising. Number of times a company has to bring in outside help to get the change because it's not a capability or muscle they really have about how to change ourselves. Right. We execute against what we build or do here really well for help. But but that idea of getting outside the box and thinking different how we can improve, like you said, poke holes and so that's why I like it that there's someone When a company sees someone with your skill set and the way that you're wired and leverages it to say like, we kind of informally have this person like really helping things about because it's commonly not a muscle that they really have. Sometimes they have the awareness they don't, but sometimes they don't the long, really large change initiatives that take a long time and either never really get off the ground or never really where they should have gone or before they kind of just either die on the vine or we just call it, you know, just call it good. They don't draw in. It gets a group above everyone trying to lay change on top of folks instead of incorporate everyone into change and then go through it together. Learning together with someone like you that can connect the dots, connect with people, can bring that about. And think in a way it's really powerful and effective. Yeah, I was going to tease you. don't know if you have anything on that. But you mentioned books, you mentioned podcasts. Do have any favorites that you just would throw out? Classic go to book, current read, current podcast.
Casey (35:01)
My favorite all time book is a book called Wolf Pack by Abby Wambach. She's a soccer player, she's fantastic, and it's a book about leadership. It's like 70 pages long. It has a set of like four rules. And yeah, it's written from a like, you know, girl power, woman empowerment, leadership empowerment kind of thing, but it's universally adaptable to life, to it doesn't matter what your gender might be. what your job might be, Wolfpack. I can't recommend it enough. And then most recently, I read the let them theory and it's life changing. It's not a new topic, right? It's not a new concept. Of course you should control the things that you should stress about the things that you can control and let the things you can't control go, right? There's lots of different places that that comes up, but Mel Robbins just did a great job, like putting it into stories that you could like directly apply it to your life, or at least for me anyway. And I find myself quoting that book to myself pretty regularly. Yeah.
Scott Dunn (36:03)
That's a good sign. That's a really good sign. I find myself too. That's I literally will go through something. I start to realize like you've mentioned this book or this thing like three times now in the last few weeks. Like, OK, that's obviously significant. You didn't miss a time. you make another really good point. I really say like at the meta level in some ways, when it impacts you personally and you connect to it personally, it's going to be helpful and relevant in the work you do because you're going to be sharing the expression of who you are. And I say that because some people will go like, here's this top leadership book this year. I'm to read this well-known. And sometimes I'll struggle to just like really pick the book. Even if it is good content, I don't connect to it. I'm not sharing with others. It's not part. It doesn't become a home and gets spread. So I love what you're saying.
Casey (36:48)
completely agree with that. read, I spent a lot of time last year reading a book called Mind Your Mindset. I don't know if you've read that one. But in theory, it's great. But it's so business focused that like I didn't personally relate to it. And so I had to go find some other book that was less business structured to, to like, bolster that topic. All the words were the same. It's just the storyline really, really changes it for me. So telling stories, right, is the most important thing of how we connect. to the world.
Scott Dunn (37:20)
Yes, yes, yes. And I believe in that. That's how we're just wired. brains are wired. Story really sticks. And you're making me think like, yeah, those books I recommend the most are more not have a lot of stories, even if it's less directly tied to the work I do. Maybe it's not even technology. It's not even maybe it's not even around business, but it's got stories they do and stick and connect. I love that. So I'll check that out. I have not read Will Peck. I think I've seen it, but now that I know it, pages I'm also enticed to on that. I can get through it.
Casey (37:52)
It's one hour of your time max.
Scott Dunn (37:53)
us. If I can't do that over breakfast, then what's going on? Awesome. I appreciate that. This has been great. I think there's a lot of nuggets for folks that are listening. I wouldn't be surprised, by the way, that this could get chopped up into part one, part two. I think we like them. But this is great because I think it's a great part one, part two, given how we kind of split the conversations. And I love the personal aspect on that as well. So thank Thank Casey for the time. It's been wonderful. think I really look forward to people's feedback on this and a lot of takeaways, a lot of that can be, they can try out some of these things very next week in terms of how they show up and who they are and what they're about. There's just a whole lot of good pieces of this that I think are readily possible for so many people. So I really, really appreciate that too as well. I'm on automatic sites. love them. The Builder Backs, they can do something right away with that. And you gave them a lot of Thank you for that. Thank you for your time. I know you have a lot on your plate. for us, but you appreciate it. Hope to see you soon. Thanks Casey.
Casey (38:54)
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you.
Scott Dunn (38:57)
Woo!

#146: Agile Leadership That Actually Works with Brendan Wovchko

What does it look like to lead a 300-person software org inside a 1,000-person company—and still stay focused on people first? Brendan Wovchko shares what he's learned about leadership, agility, and building a culture that actually works.
Overview
Brendan Wovchko, CTO at Ramsey Solutions, joins Scott Dunn to talk about what it really takes to lead Agile teams inside a large, fast-moving organization.
From developing leadership habits to navigating team dynamics and staying grounded in purpose, this conversation is full of thoughtful takeaways for anyone working at the intersection of people, process, and product.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Brendan Wovchko
Ramsey Solutions
#80: From Struggling to Success: Reviving Agile Teams with Mike Cohn
#143: What Still Makes Teams Work (and Win) with Jim York
What Is a High-Performing Agile Team? by Mike Cohn
Four Quick Ways to Gain or Assess Team Consensus by Mike Cohn
Elements of Agile Assessment
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Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.
Brendan Wovchko is the CTO of Ramsey Solutions and a lifelong student of what it takes to build great software, lead great people, and scale both with purpose. With roots in engineering and startups, he brings decades of hands-on experience in product, leadership, and agile culture—plus a knack for turning big ideas into results that matter.