Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software

#157: What Teams Are Struggling With Right Now with Cort Sharp

Scrum isn’t new, but the questions teams are asking about it are evolving. In this episode, Brian and Cort Sharp compare notes on what they're hearing in class, in the community, and behind the scenes.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner welcomes Mountain Goat Software colleague and community manager Cort Sharp for a real-time pulse check on what’s top-of-mind for Scrum teams today.
From overloaded calendars to misunderstood metrics, Cort and Brian dig into the patterns and questions they’ve seen across classes and conversations lately. They unpack common friction points like meeting overload, velocity confusion, misused roles, and daily scrums that eat the whole morning, and offer grounded suggestions for handling each one. Whether you're a Scrum Master trying to protect team time or a developer wondering how to work more collaboratively, this episode offers helpful context (and practical nudges) to help your team work better, together.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Cort Sharp
#143: What Still Makes Teams Work (and Win) with Jim York
#152: The Five Pillars of Real Agile Improvement with Mike Cohn
7 Advantages of Scrum (Plus 1 Hidden Disadvantage) by Mike Cohn
What Is a High-Performing Agile Team? by Mike Cohn
Mountain Goat Software’s Working on a Scrum Team Course
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and host of the Agile Mentors Podcast training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner
(00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm here as always, Brian Milner. And today we have Mr. Court Sharp with us. Welcome in Court.
Cort Sharp (00:10)
Hey Brian, thanks for having me on again. Brian Milner (00:13) Yeah, Court has been a frequent guest of our show. If you've been around for a while, you probably remember some episodes we've done with him. Court works with us here at Mountain Goat Software. He is a producer and other things, community manager, other things. But he sits in on just about, well, not every class, but he sits in on a lot of classes and helps produce them and make sure that they work. We previously have had Court on with sort of this theme that, you know, Court has his finger on the pulse of things a little bit more because he sees the classes through multiple trainers. He hears the Q &As that take place in all the classes. You know, he even sees some of the emails and some of messages come through the Agile Mentors community from his work there. So Court just has some insight that maybe... a trainer like myself who only gets to see how people question in my classes that I might not have. So we like to have Kordon to get a broader voice of the people approach, if you will, into things. So we wanted to talk a little bit about what are people talking about now? What are the questions? What are the concerns?
Cort Sharp (01:18)
You
Brian Milner (01:29)
What are we hearing now in classes as opposed to maybe a year ago or six months ago? So I think probably a good place to start there, Court, is when people are talking to us about just the common, hey, here's things that's a problem, here's things that are a pain point, how do you deal with this? What are some of the more common things that you've been hearing across the classes and across the interactions with people who are in our our system.
Cort Sharp (01:53)
Right, right. Yeah, I guess I am kind of the collector of questions. ⁓ But even outside of our classes, I'm hearing a lot of questions about, I'm hearing a ton in our classes about this, but outside of our classes, whether it's on various social medias, various emails, of just questions in general to people who are newer to Scrum or I guess Agile as a whole, but specifically about Scrum.
Brian Milner (01:58)
Ha ha ha ha.
Cort Sharp (02:18)
organizations that are newer to Scrum is time management. So like how do we fit all of this new stuff? Like all this new stuff is great. All of what we talked about is great. All that we know about it is great. We were on the same page of like, hey, here's, it's a good time to check in daily with our daily Scrum, make sure we're all on the same page, right? We do need stakeholder feedback with the sprint review. It's good of us to kind of retrospect. and use our retrospective to check in on our team and our process and make sure we're doing the right stuff. But how do we fit all of that in with all of the other meetings and stuff that we already have? And you and I were talking a little bit about just kind of what we're going to talk about a bit more. But we were talking about this before we started recording. And I think I told you literally three or four days ago, I just had a conversation with one of my friends who they're working in a tech software, they're doing a software project in some organization and they're like, yeah, they're trying to get us to move to Scrum because they've heard about this thing. And I just, I don't know how you push this man. I don't know how you do this. I don't know how you live in this world because they got me in six hours of meetings a day and they expect me to get four hours of work done. And I'm not sitting at the office for 10 to 12 hours a day. That's ridiculous. So I think the biggest one is the the time management specifically with all of these meetings. And I know my personal take is I think all of these or a lot of these organizations, I can't say all a lot of these organizations are looking at Scrum as an additive to their current process, not a substitute or replacement. you do you see that, Brian? Do you agree with that?
Brian Milner (03:53)
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. mean, if they already have a huge slate of meetings that they're, I mean, there's going to be some things that Scrum isn't going to replace and shouldn't replace, for example, like, you know, one-on-ones with your manager, right? There's not a function inside Scrum for a one-on-one meeting with your manager, nor should there be, because that's not about how a team builds something. That's more general management and HR, you know? so those kinds of things, no, it's not going to replace and there are going to be other meetings outside of scrum. It's not intended for scrum to replace all of them, but it is intended to replace some of what you already did. and if you, so for me, it's all about purpose. You know, that's, that's where I think that you should start with everything is what's the purpose. And if you understand the purpose,
Cort Sharp (04:46)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (04:54)
then you can compare, ask yourself what the meetings that you have now, what's the purpose of this meeting? And if you can't answer that, then I would challenge it. I think that an agile organization should be open to challenges for any part of the process. And you should be able to say, hey, I'm not sure why we're doing this. And if we can't really articulate, here's the purpose behind it, it should be gone.
Cort Sharp (05:10)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (05:19)
We should get rid of it. So I think you're right. I think there is sort of this layering on top of, and if we don't allow the scrum meetings to replace some of the things that we've done previously, yeah, can be, it can seem like a lot more of a meeting heavy kind of system, but the meetings in the system, let's be clear, right? First of all, depends on how long your sprint is, but let's just go with the sprint that's the sprint length that's the average or most common, which is two weeks. If I have a two week sprint, first day of the sprint, I'm gonna have sprint planning. That is going to be a long meeting. There's no two ways around it. The official time box is up to eight hours if you have a month long sprint. Most people would half that if it's a two week sprint.
Cort Sharp (05:45)
Yes.
Brian Milner (06:07)
So maximum maybe of around four hours. So half a day, let's just say, right? Half a day of your first day is gonna be in planning your sprint. Then maybe you finish that meeting up with a small sort of mini daily scrum, but that's it for that day. So you have half the day on day one. Day two, day three, day four, almost all the days of the sprint that are remaining, you have 15 minute meeting. That's it. If you, if you layer on maybe a backlog refinement, maybe you have another hour long meeting in the middle somewhere, but there's no other scrum meetings every day. It's a 15 minute meeting until you get to the last day. So first day, last day, right? First day, four hour meeting last day, you're going to have the sprint review and the retrospective. So there's going to be some time probably in the first part of your day that you have a sprint review. It's going to be some time in the the back part of your day for a retrospective. But those two combined, they're not gonna, maximum I would say there, if you combine those two, would be the same as the sprint planning, maybe up to about four hours or so, maximum. So maybe half a day. So two days of your sprint, you've got half the day for meeting, two out of 10. And the other days, you've got 15 minutes every day. So yeah, there's a lot of those 15 minute meetings, but they're just one a day. And otherwise you have the entire rest of the day to do whatever you need to do to build. So percentage wise, it's actually a small percentage of the total time that you have to work in the course of two weeks. ⁓ If the meetings are not being kept in their time boxes,
Cort Sharp (07:32)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Brian Milner (07:55)
then that's the issue, right? If we have a daily scrum that goes for an hour, yeah, I would feel like that's a beat down as well. That's not what it's intended to be.
Cort Sharp (08:06)
Right, right. And I've also heard the other really common complaint is about the daily scrum of, I understand it's only 15 minutes. I understand that it's a check-in. There's been, I've heard complaints about other, or seen complaints about other meetings where the point of the meeting isn't really well understood across the team, which I think we'll get into a little bit later. But specifically about the daily scrum, the biggest complaint I've seen is, okay, it's 15 minutes, but is it actually really only 15 minutes of your day? And again, same buddy of mine, same friend of mine who threw this out to me, and he was like, so let me paint this picture for you. I get in the office, let's say at 9 a.m. I sit down, I eat. respond to a few emails. look at my emails, I check that out until about 9.30. Our daily standup is at 9.30. Our daily scrum is at 9.30. I have to do minimal work because I can't get into any deep work. I can't get into any major thought work in that first 30 minutes. So I can't really do a whole lot there. Maybe I'll grab a cup of coffee and hang out. That's what most of my days look like. 15 minutes. And then there's always 15 minutes after that 15 minutes to kind of coordinate with whoever needs to, whoever I need to work with to get stuff done, to help remove bottlenecks or anything, which is totally fine, right? We encourage kind of that 16th minute, so to speak, outside of it, but the meeting officially ends at 15 minutes and unless you need to coordinate with someone else, you're free to go, right? So he's like, okay, there's normally another about 15, maybe 30 minutes. So that takes me until about 10, 15. Well, lunch is at 11, so I got another 45 minutes of nothing. Can't really do a ton of work, and that's basically my whole morning just gone, right out of the gate, right? So it's a 15 minute meeting, but in my friend's world, it's a lot more than 15 minutes. ⁓ I know what I would say to that. I'm curious what you would say, and then I'll share what I would say to that.
Brian Milner (10:02)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to say something that may blow people's minds. What if you don't have the daily scrum first thing in your day? Right. Maybe what the issue is here is the time of your daily scrum. If it's at 9.30 and that's messing with your day because you can't really get anything done before that. And then afterwards you're spending more time. So it's taken time and then there's not enough focus time before lunch. so you feel like half your day is gone, well, what would happen if it was the last thing in your day? What about if you ended the day with a daily scrum? What about if you did it first thing after lunch? There's nothing that says it has to be first thing in the day. The team can decide any point of the day to have the daily scrum, and I encourage the team to experiment with it. I've had some teams before who
Cort Sharp (10:48)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (10:58)
really love end of the day daily scrums because they felt like at the end of the day, we check in with each other. We get together and say, all right, what happened today? Right. And they can all, it's all fresh in their mind because they just finished the day. They can talk through it all. All right. So what does that mean for tomorrow? All right. When we come in tomorrow, we're going to do this. And one of the things that allows is if you have, most of the places I've worked,
Cort Sharp (11:02)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (11:24)
You have developers who have sort of different time schedules. Some people will sleep in and come in late and work late. And other people like to come in really early because they like to avoid the traffic. If you have that kind of situation, if you put it towards the back part of your day, then when people come in in the morning, it doesn't matter what time they come in, they have a big chunk of focus time, but then they can dive in and do things. to me, your friend's problem is more about
Cort Sharp (11:32)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (11:50)
that interrupting the block of concentration time and it just needs to be moved to a place where it doesn't, you know, kind of split that block of focus time.
Cort Sharp (11:54)
Mm-hmm. That's a much better answer than I gave him. I just said, well, what else would you be doing in your morning? And he said, well, probably, you know, putzing around, checking email, doing nothing until lunch anyways. ⁓ Right, right.
Brian Milner (12:06)
Ha ha ha! Well, there is always that, right? mean, just because you've got the opportunity to have focus doesn't mean you're going to focus, but that's a whole other set of issues, right? Yeah.
Cort Sharp (12:24)
Right, yep. And really, I guess my additional answer to him was also, when you're working in an organization, you're making a reciprocal commitment to that organization to say, I will get this amount of work done, you will give me this type of compensation, and there will be communication between everyone. ⁓ And to me, the Daily Scrum is that communicative part, maybe not necessarily with the organization as a whole.
Brian Milner (12:44)
Right.
Cort Sharp (12:51)
but you're still communicating with your team and you're getting on the same page, you're getting aligned so that you all can meet your reciprocal commitment. So really, is the daily scrum for the team or for the organization? I think you can make an argument for either, but at the end of the day, it's for everyone to get on the same page so that we can move forward, which you were going to say something? Go ahead.
Brian Milner (13:12)
No, just going to say, part of that as well is just, this is some of the stuff that we talk about in our working on a Scrum team class that we're launching here at Mountain Goat Software is really these kind of more subtleties of how the team works together. When you take a Scrum Master class or something like that, you'll learn that, it's a 15 minute meeting and there's a time box. You may not hear that kind of thing of, well, what works best for this team? Maybe it's the end of the day. Maybe it's the middle of the day. Those are the kinds of things that we try to focus on in a WoWs class is what's the best way for your team to actually do this thing and actually make it successful. ⁓ One of those other areas that I think is kind of a classification of problems is that classification of things and just kind of general process confusion.
Cort Sharp (13:49)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (14:00)
You know people who just don't understand You know chunks of the process or why things are done a certain way or how to do certain things What what kind of issues have you heard along those lines? Cort Sharp (14:01) Right. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard and seen and had conversations with people about velocity and how velocity, some piece of after it's explained to them, they totally get it. They're on the same page. That's all good. Then they run into the issue of explaining it to their leadership. But the understanding of velocity is that it's a changeable or it's a metric to compare teams.
Brian Milner (14:21)
Ha
Cort Sharp (14:41)
And I'm on team A and we have a velocity of 20. You're on team B. You have a velocity of 30. Someone looks at that, bigger number, better, right? Brian's team is better than Court's team. No, that's not what it is at all. That's not how it should be used. That's not how it should be handled. That is a misuse of the process. That is a confusion point on what velocity actually is. Velocity, I guess we'll explain it here.
Brian Milner (14:52)
Right.
Cort Sharp (15:06)
Velocity is just a measurement of how much one specific team gets done in a period of time. That's it. How many points? And points are all relative. So story points are relative. They are not the same from one team to the next. So therefore, your velocity cannot be the same from one team to the next or comparable from one team to the next. You might have the same velocities, but it's not like saying, OK, my US American dollar is the same as your US American dollar. Those are two very similar, those are the same exact thing. Those are very comparable. We're working with different types of measuring is really what it comes down to, right?
Brian Milner (15:43)
Right. Well, and I get the confusion because Mike's phrase is, estimate size, derive duration. So when you start to say, well, a story point is a measure of size, not time, you sometimes get pushback from people to say, yeah, but you're eventually going to translate it into time anyway. And you're right. We are. We're deriving duration from it. But the split we're trying to make there is when we estimate, right? When the developers are doing the estimation, we don't want them thinking in terms of time. We don't want them to make that process forward leap to say, well then the story point equals this number of hours. So let me do the calculation in my head and figure out how many story points this is gonna be. I say this in class. If your organization has a conversion chart like that,
Cort Sharp (16:12)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (16:33)
a story point equals this number of hours, you're gonna have to convince me and explain to me what benefit there is of doing that. Because I have yet to hear anyone say, oh, well, we do that because it gives us this benefit. Other than saying because that's the way our tool works, right? Our tool we use to manage our process or whatever takes it in this way. And so we have to make the conversion so that we can use this tool.
Cort Sharp (16:42)
Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (17:01)
Now the problem is the tool is driving your process. But other than that, there's not really a benefit that anyone can show me for making that conversion, because what the developer ends up doing is estimating in time. And if they're going to estimate in time, wouldn't it be easier just to say, our estimate is in hours rather than story points? ⁓ It's six hours to do that. It's not one story point. ⁓
Cort Sharp (17:19)
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.
Brian Milner (17:26)
That's what I encourage people to do. the confusion comes from the fact that we do make that duration, we do drive the duration eventually, but that's for the long range forecast. I mean, we say very clearly in our other classes, but we talk about this in the worst class and the working on a scrumpting class, that when you're estimating something, you're thinking in terms of size, you're thinking in terms of risk. comparative to other things. And there's really only two reasons that we would use Story Points. One is to make those longer term forecasts, but the other is to help the product owner to know the relative cost of things so they can prioritize. But the thing you're mentioning, Core, is to use it as a performance metric, and that's where people fall into, I think, a big trap. When you use it as a performance metric, it actually destroys the other two reasons. Mike says this, we have a good thing going with the other two reasons. Organizations want to be able to forecast forward. Organizations need the product owner to be able to know the relative cost of something so they can prioritize. Those are good things. So why go in and destroy it by also trying to use it as a performance metric? Because those two things are needed still. And we won't have a way of doing those.
Cort Sharp (18:24)
You Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, totally. I agree with that. I don't really have anything to add. I you just kind of knocked that one out of the park there, Brian. Good job.
Brian Milner (18:48)
Yeah. Yeah, no, mean, velocity, some of these, part of it's, you know, these are all new terms for a lot of people as well. And so you hear terms like velocity and think, oh, what does that mean? And, and I get it, you know, if you're a manager and you're not really familiar with this kind of stuff and you hear the term velocity and you think, oh, that's the speed of the team. Well, yeah, it is the speed of the team. Right. And if it's the speed of the team, why can't I use that to judge one team against the other? Because it's like using, um, you know, Fahrenheit and Celsius. I mean, it's
Cort Sharp (18:56)
Right.
Brian Milner (19:18)
metric and imperial. They're different measures. And so one number doesn't equal the same thing as the other. ⁓ Now, there are some scaled frameworks like safe that we'll try to level set across teams by having a little cheat sheet saying, hey, this is an example of a five-point story. This is an example of an eight-point story. So that the teams can maybe relatively compare against the same definitions of
Cort Sharp (19:25)
Right? Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (19:45)
sizes. ⁓ But I gotta say, even there, the teams are going to be off. The teams are not going to be perfectly aligned. That's the only thing that you can really do to try to align those. But they still have their own conversations. They still reach their own conclusions. And so the scales aren't going to be perfectly aligned no matter what you do.
Cort Sharp (19:46)
Mm-hmm. think even more importantly beyond they have their own conversations or I guess more fundamentally, not more importantly, more fundamentally, is that they have different people on different teams. You have different skill sets, you have different abilities, you have different people working on different stuff. I think I've programmed a little more recently than you have maybe, or it might be vice versa. I know you've recently just built a website again. But I would probably wager my programming skill set in like, I don't know, Ruby on Rails is probably a little, I got a little edge up on you right there, right? So if we were on different teams, Court's on this team, Brian's on that team, how can we possibly compare this different skill sets to each other and expect the same result, the same speed, the same pace?
Brian Milner (20:37)
Yep. Yep, definitely so.
Cort Sharp (20:55)
You were talking about, oh, it's like comparing using Fahrenheit and Celsius. The first one that popped into my mind was miles per hour or miles and kilometers per hour, miles per hour, kilometers per hour. Right. Speed in different cars. And then even beyond that, I guess, building on the car analogy, that's like comparing a high end Ferrari to my little first car ever, which was a Saturn Ion little beater. Could barely get up to 60 miles an hour thing. Those are two different cars. They're two different skill sets and they require two different viewpoints to even be able to compare them. There are comparisons you can make, know, four wheels, steering wheel, whatever. But at the end of the day, one of those is going a whole lot faster and it was not my first car. I can tell you that. ⁓
Brian Milner (21:39)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to compare it as well. What about things that have to do, and I'll kind of combine some thoughts here, but maybe what about things that are kind of more role-centric or even just how the team works together? What kind of issues have you heard people mention recently in those areas?
Cort Sharp (21:49)
Mm-hmm. So managers, for one, what is the role of managers within Scrum? What's the difference between a product owner and a product manager? Is there a product manager? Does that person even exist? Do we just need to fire all of our product managers or turn them all over into product owners? That one's very common. But I think another really common one is when does the Scrum master step in? And the first time I took my first scrum master class, I can't say first time I took one. I've only officially taken one. but I've been in, if you look at the title of a podcast episode, a couple, couple episodes ago, a rough estimate of a billion, scrum classes. Laura, Laura, Laura Kendrick and I have been in a billion scrum master classes. That was, that was the fun conversation we had, but. I made that that I needed that question to answer to help me kind of grasp what is this new role? This is not a very traditional typical thing that you see within organizations of the Scrum Master. Do I as the Scrum Master, do I help estimate? Do I help prioritize the backlog? What do I do? Am I am I a team lead? Is everyone trying to talk with me on the daily stand up and is it my role or my job to hold? take notes, hold people accountable to what they're saying? Or is that kind of just my job to say, okay, cool, we did it, we're good. I facilitated this meeting, I put it on all your calendars, you showed up and do your thing, I'm out, see ya, right? So I think the Scrum Master role as a whole, there's a bit of confusion on that and product or project managers, right? How do we manage those or handle those?
Brian Milner (23:43)
Yeah. Well, the other titles, no matter what other title that you have, first of all, let's separate out. This is part of what people need to understand. Do not confuse job title with scrum roll, right? Because you can have, let's say I'm a project, I'm hired as a project manager, but...
Cort Sharp (24:00)
Hmm.
Brian Milner (24:07)
now I'm gonna be on a Scrum team, I could be the Scrum master on that Scrum team. Does that change my job title? No, I'm still hired as a project manager. So that's kind of the thing that people need to understand. You don't have to have the job title Scrum master or now we're doing Scrum, so now we got to fire our project managers and hire Scrum masters, right? That's not necessarily the case. It's a role on the team. ⁓ So that being said, Scrum defines three.
Cort Sharp (24:15)
All right. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (24:33)
It defines Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Developer. It doesn't define any others. It doesn't mean you don't have them. Mike has this phrase that I love. says, the Scrum guy doesn't mention tacos, but it doesn't mean we don't have tacos. ⁓ The one I like to say in class is it also doesn't define a CEO. But I bet you have a CEO. I bet your company has a CEO.
Cort Sharp (24:47)
Right.
Brian Milner (24:58)
It's not saying that you don't need these other roles or that there's no place for them in an organization using Scrum. It's saying Scrum is going to define for you how a single team works. And if you have a product manager, maybe that's more of a scaled thing of how we manage that product across multiple teams. If you have project managers, maybe that's about coordinating information across teams. If you have business analysts, maybe that's helping product owners to write stories. Maybe they are a product owner. I don't know. If you have managers, managers are usually not on a Scrum team unless they're really expert at doing a certain skill. Sometimes I'll see managers who are developers on a team. But the power dynamic is a weird thing on a Scrum team and that's something to be careful of. If you do have someone who is a manager of any kind on a Scrum team, I would, if at all possible, try to make sure that they don't have any direct reports that are also on that same team. They can be on another team with other people that don't report to them, but if you have them on a team with people that directly report to them, now you got this weird power dynamic within this team that's supposed to be a team of equals, but it's not a team of equals because one person's going to fill out a...
Cort Sharp (25:56)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (26:12)
performance report on me. So how safe do I feel to say I made a mistake around a manager who's gonna put that on my performance report? That's the danger. ⁓ But yeah, I think you're gonna have any of these other roles. And as far as the Scrum Master is concerned, when does the Scrum Master step in? Well, let me ask everyone listening to think about this question. If you were a parent of a child, when do you step in if you have a child who's doing something that could be harmful?
Cort Sharp (26:21)
Right? Right.
Brian Milner (26:39)
Think about this, I didn't tell you what age the child was, right? If you have an infant, you're gonna step in a lot quicker. You're gonna protect them a lot more. If you have a teenager, you might give them a lot more leash and say, hey, that's your responsibility, right? You know kind of how to do this. And if they insist on doing something a way that you don't think is the right way,
Cort Sharp (26:42)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (27:04)
a certain point as a parent, you have to just say, you know what, this is their lesson to learn. And, you know, they need to have the, I believe very strongly as a parent that you have to really defend your kids' rights to make their own mistakes. And I'm not saying developers are kids, or I'm not saying that, you know, you're, as a Scrum Master, you're the parent of the team. Please don't interpret it that way. But I am saying there's a parallel to this to say,
Cort Sharp (27:09)
Mm-hmm. Right. You
Brian Milner (27:29)
As a scrum master, knowing when to step in is an issue by issue decision. At this instance, how harmful will it be if they do this thing? Is this a kid running out in front of a truck coming down the street? Well, I'm gonna stop that. ⁓ Is this, hey, don't touch that plate, it's hot. I have told you 50 times, don't touch that plate, it's a hot plate.
Cort Sharp (27:35)
Right. Right.
Brian Milner (27:52)
Okay, well hey, maybe it's time for you to touch that hot plate and understand that, hey, next time I'm not gonna touch that hot plate, you know?
Cort Sharp (27:54)
Right. I totally agree. I'm a little more, and I understand I'm a little biased in this, but I'm a little more of a fan of the Scrum Master. The best or a good analogy of a Scrum Master is like a coach on a team, like a sports team is what I'm saying. And the reason I'm biased, right.
Brian Milner (28:12)
Gee, I can't understand why that would resonate with you.
Cort Sharp (28:16)
Who would have thought? I am a, well, recently, I'm a little hiatus right now, but I am a swim coach, head coach, and I think the parallel there is just much easier for me to grasp because think of a coach. You are supporting your team. You're stepping in when needed. You're talking with, whether it's officials or referees or someone that's a little higher up, has a little more authority. than you or your team has in a moment. You're not being disrespectful to them, but you're just communicating, you're conversing, you want to get their understanding and you want to communicate that to your team and work within whatever kind of scope is set there. You're working within the scope of the rules. So I like to view that as kind of like, here's the general organization rules that we follow and standards and practices and all that stuff. But I'm not the one, me personally, I'm not the one.
Brian Milner (28:48)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (29:09)
jumping in the water and doing the races, right? I'm not the one out there on the court, dribbling a ball up and down. I'm not the one out there on the field tackling people, right? I'm there to help the team formulate a plan, help the team execute that plan and help the team really just do what they can't or remove as much of their stress as possible so that they can only focus on doing their job, which in the coaching space is
Brian Milner (29:15)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (29:36)
sport coaching space is let the team go out and swim, let the team go out and play football, let the team go out and play basketball or baseball or softball or whatever it is, right? Let them do their thing. You're there to help them and make their day on game day on meat day as easy as possible and as seamless as possible for them. So there was there was something that you said there to Brian that kind of got my gears gears turned a little bit.
Brian Milner (29:55)
Absolutely, Kreen.
Cort Sharp (30:02)
You were talking about how the kind of power dynamic, if like a manager is on a team and someone reports to them, there's that power dynamic there. But you said that everyone is on an equal playing field within Scrum. we're all on the same level within our team. We might have different roles, but we're all on the same level. And that kind of got me moving into like, what have you seen that one kind of helps establish that we're all on the same team, we're all on the same playing field, we're all working together, you I might be the product owner, so I might have a little, or I do have guidance over here's the direction we're gonna go more so than maybe the Scrum Master does with the product development itself. But how do you kind of build that trust within a team to be able to say, yeah, I see you, Cort, as an equal contributor here, even though you're the one saying, We're going to do, we need to do this, this, this, and the other thing in the next two weeks. cause I see a lot of, I see a lot of questions about that. see a lot of struggles with that. And I think that's a very common issue that a lot of people face within a scrum team. Because again, it is so different from, I report to my manager. You don't report to your scrum master. You don't report to your product owner. You sit down and have conversations with them. So how do you, how do you kind of foster that and facilitate that? that type of environment.
Brian Milner (31:25)
Yeah. Great question. And like the kids used to say a while back, there's the rub. You know, that's kind of the key point there. There's a thing we say about Scrum where we, a lot of trainers and coaches will say this, Scrum is simple to understand, difficult to master. And that is precisely what's meant by that. And that's kind of some of the stuff that we try to capture in this working on Scrum team. Class is is that difficult to master portion because? You know, how do you how do you gain trust from someone else? well That's not in the scrum guide, right? I we're not gonna be able to you know, look that section up and say here's the rules on how you You know start to trust someone else that you're working alongside That's a difficult thing How do you do it? Well, it takes time You know, it's like a any kind of any other kind of relationship you have with another human being, you can't walk in from day one and say, hey, we're going to now have this deep trust with each other. You have to extend it and you have to earn it. That's the way that it's built. And that has to happen over time. You have to display that I have trust in you and I'm worthy of your trust. So when you put your trust in me, you can count on me. I'm going to be here and I'm going to do what it is you expect me to do. That's really the only answer that works for that. it's difficult. is the human working dynamic, I think, is the undervalued kind of glue that holds a lot of this other stuff together. ⁓
Cort Sharp (32:52)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (32:55)
And it's that kind of stuff that a good scrum master, I think, can really make an impact on because, hey, they're not just going to know a time box. That's kind of just Scrum 101. But they're going to also know, well, what happens when I have two team members who get into a big conflict, who disagree? My hand's off, and I just let that run. And all of a sudden, now we have a team that splits, that fractures along that line.
Cort Sharp (33:05)
Right. Right. Yeah.
Brian Milner (33:23)
Or do I get roll up my sleeves and get involved and have the skills to help them navigate that conflict and come back as a team without resentment, without losing trust in each other, but really working honestly with each other and being productive when we come back. That's the difficulty. And like I said, that's something we tried to capture when we kind of created that working on a Scrum Team classes.
Cort Sharp (33:23)
Right.
Brian Milner (33:48)
And what are some of those more subtleties of nuances that really are the heart of whether the team is going to work or not?
Cort Sharp (33:57)
Right. think even, even beyond just what do these look like? I think the way I view a working on a scrum team is it's for everyone on a scrum team, right? It's not just for scrum masters. It's not just for product owners. It's not just for developers. It gives you a big picture. Excuse me. Sorry. It gives you a big picture of how, how effective you can truly be when you are.
Brian Milner (34:18)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (34:25)
working together on a Scrum team, right? You were talking a little bit about the human working dynamic or nature, one of those. And as soon as you said that, I was like, we should double click into that a little bit. But very briefly, maybe double click into it a little bit of when we work together and humans are working together and not working in siloed environments, not saying, hey, I'm the front end developer. I did my mock up.
Brian Milner (34:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Cort Sharp (34:52)
I'm out, I'm done. Figure it out everyone else. you're, struggling with your database stuff. Tough. I'm done with my thing. I'm going to sit back and sip a, sip a cool lot on, on Tahiti's beaches or whatever. Right. We're not doing that. We're, we're helping each other out. We're working together and we're saying, okay, cool. You're having database issues. I don't know anything about databases, but maybe I can help look up some stuff or I can find some. help you out in some way that isn't inhibiting you from doing your job. But it might not be like doing it. It's definitely not doing your job for you. And it's not like it's a, I know everything about databases or I know enough about databases to be able to get by. It could be even as basic as, you run into this error code. Cool. I'll look that up for you and send you the results and save you a little time, hopefully that way or something. But it's that team collaboration, it's working together as a team. I like the perfect example, which I'm pretty sure we talked about this in working on a Scrum Team course as well, of developers and testers working together in tandem and saying, instead of, we like to say, developers finish their code and then we throw it over the proverbial wall. And all right, testers, you got to catch it, figure it out. and then test it, developers maybe sit side by side with testers or hop on a call, not too dissimilar from what we're doing here, just hop on a call with each other and say, let's figure out the verification that the password meets the requirements. Okay, cool, tester, you want to write up the tests, I'll start developing or working on the code for it. Awesome, here's my code, here's my thought process. Do you have any thoughts, Tester? Do you see any edge cases right out of the gate that I should keep an eye out for or work on? I think that is the bigger picture that working on a Scrum team really highlights and really focuses on and allows a lot of people to kind of open their eyes a bit more and see the forest through the trees, so to speak, to be able to understand here's the value and here's what it actually means to be working on a Scrum team rather than just here's my role. I'm gonna go do my role, do my thing and see everyone else figure it out.
Brian Milner (37:08)
Yeah, not that it ignores the basic components and the ground rules that help us, but it goes beyond that to say, how do you actually make this thing work? So yeah, that's a great point. Well, this has been really useful. I really appreciate you taking time to do this, Court, and coming back. And I'm sure we'll do this on a periodic basis, just to check in and see, hey, what are you hearing now? What are the hot button issues now? So.
Cort Sharp (37:18)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Milner (37:32)
Thanks for sharing that and keeping your ears open and continue to do that so we can do more of these.
Cort Sharp (37:39)
Hey, happy to Brian always always fun just seeing what's what's going on out there. What conversations are are being had. And I hope this actually like help someone. Right. I hope this this helps solve either clears up some confusion about, know, maybe what the daily standup is for, what the daily scrum is for, who it's for. Hopefully it doesn't add more confusion. But if it does, you know, you know where to go. Right.
Brian Milner (37:59)
Hahaha. Exactly, All right, thanks, Cort.
Cort Sharp (38:05)
Yeah, thanks for having me.

#156: Making Product Ownership Work in Shared Services with Kert Peterson

Shared services teams often wonder: Does product ownership still apply here—or are we the exception to the rule? In this episode, Brian and Kert Peterson explore how Scrum principles hold up when value isn’t always customer-facing and demand never stops.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes back longtime friend and mentor Kert Peterson for a deep dive into what product ownership looks like in a shared services environment.
They explore the practical realities that differentiate shared services from traditional product teams, from endless stakeholder requests to the challenge of defining “value” when your users are internal. Together, they discuss the importance of proactive leadership, strategic alignment, and understanding who your real customers are. Kert also shares tools for improving intake, applying an experimentation mindset, and closing the feedback loop, even when your work is abstracted from the business’s end goals.
Whether you’re a product owner in infrastructure, data, middleware, or internal tools, this episode will help you reconnect your team’s work to the outcomes that matter.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Kert Peterson
#9: Scrum Artifacts with Kert Peterson
#12: Kanban with Kert Peterson
What Happens When For Product Owners
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and host of the Agile Mentors Podcast training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Kert Peterson is an experienced Agile coach and trainer who bridges the gap between business strategy and technical execution. With a background spanning engineering, marketing, and management, he’s helped teams at Amazon, NASA, and Capital One launch Agile practices that actually deliver.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you here as always, Brian Milner. And today I have one of my dear friends with me, Mr. Kert Peterson is back. Welcome back, Kert.
Kert (00:13)
Thank you, Brian. It's great to be back with you.
Brian Milner (00:16)
Love having Kert on. Kert is one of my mentors and actually first person I ever came in contact with when I was trying to become a CST. He kind of showed me the ropes and took a lot of time helping me to understand how to do this thing. So I have a huge debt of gratitude to Kert that I can never repay. But wanted to have...
Kert (00:33)
It's funny, Brian, let me just say I have the same debt of gratitude to Mike Cohn. So it's funny, it's coming full circle.
Brian Milner (00:37)
That's awesome. That's awesome. So, but we wanted to have Kert on because we want to talk about something that we I know I've heard a lot of questions about in class and it's a big topic of conversation. And that is, you know, when we talk about working in the area of shared services, you know, how does product ownership fit and work into that area? Does it fit and work into that area? Or do we find the exception? Is this the place where product ownership just all of a sudden is not able to provide any value? So Kert, that's a huge big ball of yarn to unravel there, but what comes to mind when you think about this?
Kert (01:18)
Well, I think back to the origins, what inspired the Scrum framework, which was Japanese product companies in the late 1970s doing things differently, using this sort of rugby approach and getting cross-discipline groups together and seeking to innovate and reduce time to market. So when I think about product ownership arising out of that context, it's very clear, right? There's a printer that I want to get better at. I want to take a Canon EOS Rebel and I want to make the next generation of it, or I want to take the Honda Civic. And I want to improve the way it shifts or whatever. And so there's a lot of clarity. And I think, I would say an easy vision to sort of begin to form and coalesce around the direction we're moving in. And the shared services groups I've worked with, whether it's middleware or data people or cybersecurity folks, they just experienced this constant deluge of requests from a variety of stakeholders, dozens, if not hundreds of stakeholders. And it feels like they're always operating tactically. helping those product owners that they're leading shared services teams to shift out of the tactical and begin to think more strategically and begin to get more, I guess, proactive about how they meet requests and what they're going to offer and how they're going to offer it is sort of a challenge that I think I see many of my customers and clients up against.
Brian Milner (02:37)
Yeah. I think one of the things I hear quite often about this is it's sort of, you know, cause and for example, a product owner class or something like that. We'll talk a lot about understanding your customers and, and mapping out kind of personas and other things and how that influences our idea of value. And then how you, kind of rank value according to your backlog. And that, that to me is kind of where one of the friction points here in shared services is you've got these demands coming at you. all day, every day from all these different corners and from everyone, it's urgent. From everyone, this is the most important thing. So how can you apply some of this product ownership mindset principle to scenarios where everything is urgent?
Kert (03:21)
Yeah, you those fundamentals, you know, when something's coming in, how do we weigh it against other opportunities? And usually we want to do so financially. How do we kind of begin to assess this particular request or opportunity against others? And when I teach product owner training in person, I hand out these little plastic covered pictures of currency. So I'll have like a yuan from China. I'll have a euro, I'll have all these varieties of currency and I won't, I make them kind of cryptic. Like I'll choose one from, you know, maybe one from Mongolia. And so I put this currency in front of them. say, okay, rank these in order of value, you know, translate it to U S dollars, which one's most to least important. And they struggle because I don't let them look at their phones and they have to, you know, sort of think or be creative. And at the end of the activity, they realized, wow, I don't have a system for translating this currency into the currency that's universal, which is US dollars. And it gets them, it sort of sets the stage for this idea of scoring, you whether you're using rice or some other scoring method, it sets the stage for that conversation, which is critical. How do you objectively assess what's coming in and make the choice on the next best thing to build? Yeah.
Brian Milner (04:36)
Yeah, that's a great exercise. I love that because it's a great picture there to understand as a product owner, you can't make those decisions in a vacuum. If you don't have the background, if you don't have the knowledge, if you don't have source information coming in, then no, I can't rank currencies. I've got to have expertise in those areas to help me understand those things. So yeah, I love that exercise. That's awesome. One of the other things I hear quite often in the shared services space is kind of the idea of, maybe this stuff is, maybe Scrum doesn't work as well in a shared services space because of the immediacy of all this stuff. And maybe we have to do Kanban versus Scrum. What's your opinion there?
Kert (05:18)
When I was at Capital One many years ago, shared services teams were adopting Scrum because that was the only game in town. This was 2005. really Agile was sort of very closely connected to Scrum because the Scrum and XP communities sort of were the members of the Agile Manifesto. And what Scrum teams end up doing is they say, you know, we're going to have a sprint planning session and we're going to plan 10 % of our capacity for something that is doable. And we're going to reserve 90 % for unplanned work. that's coming at us. And I see Scrum teams that retain Scrum and that want to leverage Scrum for shared services really just allow for a huge buffer of flexibility. But they also start to get curious about, you know, over the last two weeks, we left 90 % of our capacity open. We used all of it. And here's the top three, you could say offenders, right? Top three requesters, top three sources of demand. And they really begin to get good at tracking where their money's being spent as a team. So they can go back to those stakeholders and say, look, if you want us to continue to serve you, give us some more funding. So I think Scrum teams can excel in shared service. You're applying Scrum in shared services. I just think there's some nuance to it. That's been my experience. I'm curious what you see too.
Brian Milner (06:34)
Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. I think that 90-10 kind of thing, the thing that concerns me or that I always try to raise with people is the whole concept of transparency and trying to understand the reality of what's behind this. So you make a good point. If we have top three offenders of people who are the people who constantly requesting things from us, it's important, I think, to stop and look at those things and say, how many of these things were things that could not have been foreseen or things that we could not have planned in advance. And how many of these things are things that really were just kind of urgent pop-up day by day, we've got to handle these things as they come in. And don't take for granted, I don't think would be my advice to people that all the things that people are requesting of you are kind of urgent day by day things. There's probably a lot of those things that could have been foreseen and could have been planned. But it takes kind of that after action of retrospecting and trying to figure that out to know the difference.
Kert (07:34)
Beautifully put, I totally agree.
Brian Milner (07:37)
Yeah. So Kert, what are some of the other big challenges that you've heard from people in the shared services space when it comes to just using Scrum?
Kert (07:45)
Well, one of the biggest challenges that I've seen and one of the things that I think is a great solution I heard from one of my mentors, Kevin Rosengren, who worked at Capital One for many years. I worked with him at Applied Frameworks and he's now an airline pilot. He loves to fly. And so he's back doing that commercially. But I worked at Mission Health in Western North Carolina for, I was a contractor there working with the application support team. And I kept using the word intake management. intake management and Kevin got really his kind of the back, back, hairs in his neck kind of bristled and his hackles went up and I'm like, come on, Kevin, what's, what's wrong with intake? And he said, intake implies passivity. You're just kind of standing there waiting for things to come at you. He says, I want my product owner to be proactive. I want them to have a vision, a mission. want them to be out in front of the problems. And so I think one of the biggest challenges for shared services is really, taking ownership of the team. And really be a financial custodian for the investment that the company's making in that team and being more proactive in Kanban. We have this term called shaping demand. And this idea of shape demand implies proactivity. So I'll give you an example. was it Collins aerospace working with a middleware team and they did some demand analysis. They kind of diagnosed their backlog, what's in it. And they, they started to realize they weren't tracking an important backlog item. speaking of kind of unplanned work, there are people with ask him for advice or consulting and they realized over a period of weeks or months that a lot of their capacity was kind of leaking or going out via these, just these consulting hits that they took. Give us advice on this, give us advice on this and it may be three hours here, four hours there, but it would add up and they realized, Hey, we can get more active. But we create a knowledge base. If we have some protocols about how we receive this request, if we make them fill out a form. So those are some. some aspects of really taking ownership of your service and requiring certain, you could say, information or maybe levels of respect coming from the requester that begins to help you feel like you have more power than you might have thought last week or last month. Yeah.
Brian Milner (09:55)
Yeah, that's a good distinction because I agree there is sort of this reactive nature sometimes to that work. if I'm a, I don't know, if I'm a backend shared services team and we're fulfilling requests on a daily basis of people to build servers and install things or whatever, it can feel an awful lot like we're just reacting to what people are giving us. So that, I agree, that's a huge challenge of, know, when you're that kind of product owner, how do you come up with a vision? How do you understand, you know, I get those questions all the time, especially if you're in things like sprint goals, you know, those kinds of things. You know, do we have a sprint goal when what we're doing is just kind of taking things in and responding to people? What do you think are the keys to people becoming more proactive than reactive as a shared services team?
Kert (10:48)
Yeah, that's that I think therein lies the challenge, Brian. I think that's a real challenge because I do think that things come at you and it just feels like you you're a ticket taker, right? You're you're you're just under this deluge of constant work and it's very tactical and it's very kind of, know, it doesn't it lacks sort of that that sense of purpose drive and the ability to say no. Now, some demand is going to be irrefutable, some demand you just have to say yes to. But I think more often or I say There is definitely a category of demand that you should be able to parse through and determine if it's for you and if it fits with the strategic goals that you've been situated, that you've been assigned or your mandate, so to speak. Gosh, it's shifting from, it's kind of like, how do you shift from that fire fighting mode to fire prevention? And I think there's a piece of that is kind of.
Brian Milner (11:35)
Right, right.
Kert (11:37)
I call it scrambling up to the crow's nest, you know, in the old pirate ships. And you've got to have at least someone on the team that's looking out and seeing the big picture and understanding the strategic goals of the business and how we as a shared services team can begin to serve them. But I don't have a, it's not easy because, you know, I think when I was a product owner at Amazon in the early days, and there was a very clear, you know, there was very clear missions like let's grow the number of wishlist creators or number of wishlists in the community. And so there was a kind of a clear, you could say marker and a clear direction for what you're up to. You're serving the community. You're doing things to populate the community, get people more connected. I think there's a lot less clarity and you have to kind of hunt for it, I would say. And I think it does take I think one of the challenges for shared services leadership is to be more connected to the business and to recognize themselves as a more integral part of the business and the ability to actually affect business outcomes. I think, so anyway, connecting to the business and getting those shared outcomes in view, think is a part of that puzzle.
Brian Milner (12:44)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you're making a strong point there because I agree. That's sometimes I think the challenge in that space is you do feel sometimes very disconnected from the business goal because it's not as clear as gain this new set of customers or service this new clientele or anything. It's more support based. It's more infrastructure based. If we don't do our job in that space, then we can't enable the other groups to do what they do well. But that's a layer of abstraction really, even from what the business has as its goal. So I think that's an important point is, if I'm that kind of product owner, I want to make sure that what we do is tied into the business objective and trying to understand fully what it is we're trying to do as a business and how we support that. We talked to, I mentioned a little bit earlier about customers and that being kind of a friction point of understanding customers. And how do you, how does that relate in your mind when you're in a shared services team? Do you, there less emphasis on trying to understand who your customer is if, know, from product ownership, uh, kind of discipline, uh, or, or is it just as important and we were not really understanding what we. should be classifying as our customers.
Kert (14:07)
I think it's the latter, Brian. I definitely think it's the latter. When I was working with this 50 person division at Mission Health, I Mission Health got acquired a couple of years ago, there were requests coming from every department in the hospital system. mean, there was clinics, there was oncology, there was radiology, there was all this, there was this huge landscape of stakeholders that, again, felt like my thing's the most important. And understanding each customer or segment of the, you could say the market, right? The 10,000 person healthcare system was really critical to sequencing work and shaping work and to timing, determining how to kind of decompose it. And so that was a really vital piece. what, you know, I think about a few weeks before I left Mission Health, there was a really strong move from the leader there, Joel, to create what we call strategic engagement partners, which really were these proactive individuals that would go out into the landscape of the hospital system and begin to profile the oncology clinicians or the oncology physicians. And so by doing that, it started to kind of get them to put a finger on the pulse of the bigger, really the customer, which was a variety of customers, but it also helped them recognize, okay, this quarter we're, As a healthcare system, we're falling way behind in MRIs or radiology services. And so we better give some extra attention to that. So let's ensure that that's part of our goal this quarter. And so it really, that strategic engagement with the customer is, think as critical as it is when you're selling a camera or a car. Yeah.
Brian Milner (15:43)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. That just brings to mind as well then the idea of making closing that loop with your customer to understand whether what you're doing is actually making impact or not. And I think you gave a good example there, but what about if your shared services team is kind of more internal? And like I said, if we're installing servers, If we're installing some big network system or something, and that's what our team does in various places, how do we close that loop in a more productive way and really make sure that the work we're doing, even though it's somewhat repetitive, even though it's abstracted from your end customer, how do you make sure it's actually doing what's needed?
Kert (16:26)
Yeah, that's, I love that question, Brian. It's a fantastic question. So I live in Canada. moved here, moved here five years ago. There's a data center of excellence, data center of excellence for the government of Alberta. And, the leader of that data center of excellence, a guy named Donnie, he, he came to one of my product owner trainings and he started to kind of put pieces together that I want my 30 person data team to be equipped to not only go out and service, you know, the community of the ministries. there's like 26 ministries. like health, education, kind of like departments here in the US to service them, but also to help recognize that what we're providing is impacting the bottom line of the ministries. And in some cases, it's harder than others. I mean, I'll just like the Ministry of Health Care, for example, if a data center of excellence can go in and be a strategic partner for that data for the health care ministry, they can begin to formulate.
Brian Milner (17:14)
Yeah.
Kert (17:24)
a strategic plan for how they use data. They can begin to equip them with dashboards and other information, other data products, and they can tell a story to the bigger organization that's allocating funding for the data center of excellence. So his drum that he beats is he wants his people to be able to go in and engage strategically and be able to tell a story about the impact they have. Now, some industries are so busy and so inundated with work, they just want a dashboard. Be a ticket taker, give me a dashboard, and don't bother me with strategic stuff. And those are much harder to kind of draw the connect the dots between business impact and our efforts. But there's going to be a subset, I think, of requesters or customers that you're going to be able to start to build a relationship and tell a story. And then those customers become indispensable to, they can become part of your testimonial.
Brian Milner (17:55)
Yeah.
Kert (18:15)
they become indispensable to you justifying your existence the next annual budgeting cycle, so to speak.
Brian Milner (18:21)
Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. One of the other areas I'm thinking about as we're talking about this, because there's a lot of content that comes across in the product in our class about the idea that we should be in an experimentation mindset and look at the things in our backlog more as experiments. We're running these things trying to see if they're going to solve the bigger problem. And then if they don't, we find another experiment. Sometimes I hear a lot from people in classes that are in more shared services places that they have a harder time finding how that would fit in with what they do. It doesn't feel like experimentation. feels like, like we've talked about kind of more order taking. So how does that apply, Kert? How do you, how do you, if you're a product owner in that space, how can you take more of an experimentation mindset if you're in shared services?
Kert (19:10)
Yeah. You know, I love this question. I've never heard this question, Brian. And it's, it's a great question. It's, it's, it's taken me deep down deep, deep thinking about product ownership. I'll throw out my, my, my, I'll kind of expose my thinking and it, cause I don't have, direct experience that I could point to in sort of this experimentation, the application of this mindset to shared services. I can imagine, can imagine if you have a customer that comes and says, you know,
Brian Milner (19:14)
Hahaha. You
Kert (19:39)
I want a purple minivan. And you're in that mindset as a shared service provider, you're going to want to discover the underlying need and sort of begin to kind of tease out, you know, what is it that you're trying, what problem are you trying to solve? What is it that you're after? And maybe, you know, we've all seen that famous, you know, iterative incremental picture of, you know, the skateboard, then the, you know, what is the... thing with the handles on it and then the motorcycle and a bicycle. So that evolution of solutions you could say. And I think if you're in that mindset, you're going to say, Hey, I know you want a pink minivan or a purple minivan. Let's start with, you know, this, which is, which is going to move you in that direction, because I know what you're doing is trying to solve this problem. And let's start with that. And let's see, let's see how it goes. You see, you're enlisting the support and partnership of your customer or requester. And so it takes that willingness to kind of be in a.
Brian Milner (20:03)
Yeah.
Kert (20:30)
experimental mindset with the shared services provider, I would think. So that's my thought. don't know how that question lands for you, but it's a great question.
Brian Milner (20:38)
Yeah. No, I mean, I think this is kind of central to what we're talking about here because, you know, I think there are going to be things that, you know, are just needed and there there's not really going to be an exploration of those things. If we have a government regulation that says we've got to do this and you've got to have this in place by this date or whatever, that's That's not up for question. I don't need to run a rice, you know, kind of a prioritization on that because it's needed, right? It's unquestionable. But I think that sometimes it's sort of that line in product ownership of, I think it's very easy if you're a product owner in the shared services space to maybe shift and consider everything as a needed thing, as being an order taker. And if that's the case, then yeah, you kind of, you kind of abdicate your, responsibility in that case of understanding and prioritization and everything else, because you're just kind of giving it to the people who are demanding things from you. And I think that that's there's, there's a balance there. There's a yin and yang. I think because you've got to understand some of those things are that way. And there are some things that are not. And the things that are not, I've got to understand, as you said, the core need behind it. Because it's very easy to have your stakeholders turn you into just an order taker. And if you allow that to happen, your stakeholders will run over you. But you've got to keep that wall, keep that boundary up, I think, if you're a product owner in that space, to be able to say, now, wait a minute. You're saying you need this. Let me understand why, help me understand what's behind this. What is it that you're trying to do and accomplish with this? It's the whole how versus what kind of discussion, right? We have to understand the how behind it, or we have to understand the what behind it so that we can then talk with the team and find the best how. But if we don't go through that extra work, then I think that we just.
Kert (22:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Milner (22:51)
quite simply become order takers and get overwhelmed with the volume that's coming at us.
Kert (22:56)
Totally agree. And I think data teams are a prime example because of course everyone these days wants a dashboard. Give me a dashboard. I need a dashboard. And the probing and sort of the con I call it a consultative approach. The consultative hat you wear to go in and discover what's underlying that request. And like you're saying, what is it you're really wanting and why and what need are you trying to, you know, kind of achieve there is often I say undervalued.
Brian Milner (23:01)
Yeah.
Kert (23:22)
And often, you know, not seen because they're under such a deluge of just, you know, okay, just get them something and make them go away. And I think there's a desire to have, I mean, Donnie wanted sort of everyone in the team, his 30 person team to have that capability or that sort of consultative hat that they could wear. And I think that can come with time, but I do think that there's some people, you know, in that What we recognize was in that 30 person team, there were probably six to eight folks that were really sort of ready to step into the role of product owner. And so I think one of the things that's important in any team, specifically in shared services teams is to recognize there's going to be people or a person or people that are sort of inclined towards, you know, being a great listener, being consultative, thinking strategically and sort of bringing, you know, having kind of, I don't like the word gatekeeper, but sort of manning that front gate and ensuring that what's taken in is well understood and well shaped and all that sort of thing.
Brian Milner (24:20)
Yeah Yeah, I agree. don't like gatekeeper as well, but there's a judgment element, right? I mean, you've got to apply judgment. And that's quite frankly something that only humans can do is to apply judgment to decisions and understand the story behind the data. Well, this has been great. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this topic. As I said, this is something I hear questions about quite often in product owner classes, because there's a huge number of product owners out there that are in this space and sometimes feel like the redheaded stepchild. Maybe we just don't fit in. But I think you made a strong case here. I think there's a lot that can apply.
Kert (25:07)
So, so Brian, I'm really curious when you think about great product owners. I feel like my question to you is, are they made or are they born great product owners? Do you have any thoughts? Like what comes to mind when you think about that question?
Brian Milner (25:16)
Ha ⁓ yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's talent and skill, is what comes to mind. And I think that we all have some natural abilities in different areas, but I think we all have skills that we acquire and learn and there's discipline to it. There's rigor to that. There's a process to it. And I mean, I, you know, I think there are our product owners that have talent, ⁓ that are, that's kind of innate. but for me, it's mostly in areas that's, things like communication, right? If you're, if you're a poor communicator, ⁓ you can improve your communication skills, but, ⁓ you know, you see this in politicians and things in certain times. I talk about certain politicians as being just really good communicators naturally. Yeah. They, they've, they've studied communication and understand how to do it better. but they had an innate skill in that area already, or innate talent, I should say, since I'm differentiating between the two. ⁓ But yeah, I think I would lean more towards like maybe 90-10 skill over talent, and that it's, you know, it is a lot of practice and learning and discipline that we just, need to study and know our craft, you know, it's a craft. And I think we have to improve on that and get better at it. But yeah, I mean, in this kind of work, think I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the talent side of it. I think that there is some innateness that can be useful, but ⁓ I kind of lean much more to the skill area.
Kert (27:06)
Yeah, yeah. So Donnie's got this 30 person team and he suspected there were six to eight that were suitable candidates to kind of go into a multi-week cohort to kind of become sort of more seasoned or sort of competent product owners. If you had 30 people in front of you and you were asked to choose the six to eight that are most suitable for a product owner program, would you have any thoughts around? how you would do that. mean, I'm guessing you probably wouldn't draw straws, but
Brian Milner (27:38)
No, I mean, I think it comes back to some of the things that we talk about. ⁓ Whenever I go into an organization and try to figure out who's the right product owner for this product, it comes down to a few common things. First of all, do they have the domain knowledge for the product? Do they know enough about that product to be effective, know about the market, the customers, those kind of things? Do they have the availability to do the job? ⁓ Are they constantly going to be involved in other things? Are you splitting this person between 10 teams? ⁓ And then are you going to be able to give them the authority that they need to make the decisions that they need to make in that role? ⁓ if I was trying to decide which is the right person, that would be the rubric I would be using is trying to say which one of these people match best for this product.
Kert (28:34)
Right on. Cool. Thanks, man. Thanks for entertaining that last topic.
Brian Milner (28:39)
Yeah.

#155: Preparing for Interviews the Agile Way with Tali Shlafer

Even the most capable professionals can struggle in interviews. In this episode, Brian and job interview coach Tali Shlafer break down why, and what to do instead.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes interview coach Tali Shlafer for a practical, clear-eyed conversation about how to approach job interviews as a skill, not a personality trait.
Tali shares why being great at your job doesn’t automatically translate to interview success, especially in collaborative fields like product development, Agile coaching, and project management. She outlines a straightforward way to prepare for interviews by identifying the real challenges behind a role and building stories that speak directly to them, without sounding rehearsed or robotic. From reframing “bragging” as problem-solving to handling tough questions with clarity and self-awareness, this episode is full of grounded advice for professionals navigating their next move.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Tali Shlafer
Free Job Interview Tip Vault
Tali's LinkedIn
Tali's Instagram
#93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn
#111: Adapting to the Future of Work with Heather McGowan
Blog: Entry-Level Scrum Masters: Seven Tips on How to Get Your First Scrum Master Job by Mike Cohn
AI Prompt Pack for Product Owners & Scrum Masters
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and host of the Agile Mentors Podcast training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Tali Shlafer is a certified interview coach who helps high performers turn nerves into clarity and confidence so they can land roles they’re truly excited about. Her practical frameworks—rooted in psychology, communication, and performance—ditch the gimmicks and empower candidates to show up as their best, most authentic selves.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in everyone. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have Miss Tali Schläufer with us. Welcome in Tali.
Tali Shlafer (00:11)
Thanks, Brian. I'm excited to be here.
Brian Milner (00:13)
Very excited to have Tali with us. She is a job interview coach so you can kind of See the direction we're going in here one of her tagline is that she she helps you know professionals get offers they're really excited about and She's got some really interesting insights here because I know in today's world in today's environment There is a lot of shifting going on. There's a lot of transitioning between different places of work. And that interview is always kind of the forgotten portion of it, right? You get past all the other stuff, you get to the point where you're in the interview. So Tali, from your perspective, I know you see and help a lot of people with that portion of it. What are some of the biggest mistakes that people make that you see routinely as you help people prepare for their interviews?
Tali Shlafer (01:01)
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that you just mentioned where, you know, people really struggling with the interview piece, you do all this work in your job search to update your resume, update your LinkedIn network, all this stuff, and then you get to the interview and it's like, okay, we're close. It's actually the interview is actually a completely different stage than anything else. And one mistake that I often see people making is just the mindset around interviews. A lot of people think, if I'm great at my job, I'll just interview really well. Like I'm a top performer. I'm good to go. But interviewing is actually a skill that's completely separate from anything else we do in the workplace. It requires you to be able to articulate what you've done in the workplace and the results and the impact that you brought in a way that most of us don't have to do in our day-to-day jobs. And you have to do it better than everybody else. So just because you are a top performer doesn't necessarily mean that that translates into your ability. to talk about yourself and talk about your career, especially in a way that resonates with the specific job culture and the specific job that you're applying for. So I think that's kind of the top mistake that I would just from a mindset level, is seeing interviews as something that you're naturally good at rather than as a skill that you can really develop and build in order to set yourself up for success.
Brian Milner (02:12)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point because, know, just because, as you said, just because I'm a top performer in something that I do, have a huge skill set or knowledge area that I'm really good at, doesn't mean that I'm necessarily good at an interview process because it is kind of a whole set of other communication skills that you have to have in that kind of environment. I know when I've talked to people about it sometimes, they feel sort of this, I don't know, dichotomy a little bit back and forth about... I know I'm supposed to plug myself here. I know I'm supposed to kind of brag a little bit, but I also don't want to sound cocky. I don't want to sound, you know, I don't know, just brash or anything. How do you help people or what do you advise people about in that area?
Tali Shlafer (03:06)
Yeah, and I think this is really common for people who are top performers and people who are very team oriented and collaboration oriented. It's really difficult for those folks to go, hey, I did all this stuff by myself and to kind of put themselves in that spotlight. So it's a very common challenge. It's also very common for folks who are really good at their job and have been doing this for a long time to actually be able to articulate. what that secret sauce is, like why they're actually good at their job, which is part of the challenge. Remind me the question that you just asked.
Brian Milner (03:38)
No, I'm just, in talking about kind of like how people prepare for these kind of things, the way they communicate this stuff, sometimes it's kind of more this worry about am I being a little too overbearing or brash in how I'm bragging about myself? Will I come off seeming cocky? or overconfident, how do they walk that fine line?
Tali Shlafer (04:03)
Yeah, I think this is a really big mindset piece where a lot of people who are those top performers and are very collaborative in nature are afraid to talk about themselves and be in the spotlight and kind of take credit where, especially in something like in the agile world or project management, product management, it's a very collaborative space. people are afraid to like, people are afraid to say, here's what I did. And Part of the mindset shift that I really encourage clients and job seekers to have is rather than to see it as, hey, the interview is all about you and the spotlight's on you and you're a used car salesman trying to promo yourself and it feels really icky so we don't want to do it. We end up not doing it at all. Think of it rather as you're trying to help this employer solve a problem. You're on the same side of the table with them. You're essentially a consultant for them. Their problem is... Hey, I've got this role. I have this challenge in my company. I have this opportunity. I have this thing that I need help with and I need to find who's going to be able to help me do that. And so you're essentially being an advisor for them and sharing here's how my previous experiences and what I've done in the past might be able to help you with your challenges. So it's really, it's really a partnership type of conversation where you're exploring, well, what are you struggling with? and how, let me share ways that I think I might be able to help. I think having that mindset is a lot more helpful for people who are more collaborative in nature. I think there's also a part of it that is getting really clear on how your work has actually delivered results. Being really confident, a lot of folks who are more collaborative in nature, which is a lot of people that I work with. tend to really get stuck in the we. So they say, we deliver this, we manage this, we strategize in this way. And then the interviewer ends up losing the thread of, well, what did this person sitting across from me do? What did they lead? What did they manage versus what did they do collaboratively? so getting really clear and even getting some language around how to talk about your contributions with respect to the team. So saying, I led this strategy session or I facilitated the collaboration of this, or I made the suggestion to people who then made a decision. Those kind of nuanced pieces of communication can help us feel more comfortable with actually owning our story in a way that doesn't feel gross.
Brian Milner (06:39)
Yeah, I think you make a great point there about the partnership aspect of it because having been on both sides of the table there, I know when I was hiring people as a software manager of some kind, the thought is always when the person comes in, you want to hire them. When they've reached that stage, when you finally bring them in, you're excited about the people that you decided to bring in and you're pulling for them. You want them to actually be successful. So I think it's important to keep that in mind too, that they want you to be successful. They want that role filled or they wouldn't have put out the job wreck and all the other things. If you, so let's just kind of talk through on a practical level. If you, you've done the work, you've put out the resume, you've got the call, maybe you've even gone through, well, I guess we should talk about that as well. Kind of the difference between a virtual or phone interview and an in-person interview. Is there a difference in level of prep or in how you, you know. tricks to being more successful if it's virtual versus in person.
Tali Shlafer (07:50)
I think the preparation itself should be the same. At the end of the day, your preparation should be about what are the challenges that this company, that this organization is facing and how does this role help solve those challenges? What are the skills? What are the top five skills that I need to demonstrate? Hard and soft skills. And in order to show them that I can be the top performer for this role and what are stories that I can share for each one of those skills. to prove that, I have what it takes, I can actually walk the walk as well. I've gotten results in this area before. So the prep work itself in the days leading up to the interview should be more or less the same. I would say the difference between a virtual interview versus an in-person interview is just people's comfort level. I think a lot of people are really comfortable in in-person interviews because it feels like you're actually talking to a human, right? You have a full-size person sitting across from the table from you. So it's a lot more comfortable. And I think even though through COVID, we had a lot more virtual conversations, there's still a very performative feeling element to it when it comes to virtual interviews. So one of my top tips for virtual interviews is please turn off your self view. So if you're in the Zoom call and if you're in a meeting, because it makes people so nervous and self-conscious. So when you get on that Zoom call, that Teams call, whatever platform you're using, make sure you're in the frame, right? Make sure that your lighting is good, all that stuff, and then turn off that camera so that you're not just watching yourself and being super self-conscious the entire time. Because think about it, in what other context in your life, when you're having a conversation with someone, do you have a mirror that you're looking at?
Brian Milner (09:36)
Right, right, I mean, if you're in their interview room, unless there's a mirror all the way around, you're not really getting that view. And even if you did, you probably wouldn't watch yourself in the mirror the entire time. So yeah, that's a great tip. And I think you're absolutely right. It can lead to being very, very self-conscious then. I think it's, I want to go back a little bit to the prep because I think your tip there is a really important thing is to try to understand the challenges, understand what it is they're looking for. And it just struck me as you were saying that it seems very similar to, in my kind of line of work, I do a lot of consulting work with people. And when I have a client that's a prospective client, it's almost the same thing. where you have to research a little bit about the company ahead of time. If you're doing kind of a sales call prior to the engagement, it's very similar. And I just thought about that. There is an overlap there between that and job interviews because you are selling yourself. You are selling your services to that company.
Tali Shlafer (10:36)
And a lot of people, here's another mistake that a lot of people, a lot of well-meaning people make is as part of their prep work, going online and finding a bunch of questions that they can then prepare for. So it's a very, I kind of call it whack-a-mole where, hey, let me try to figure out all the possible questions I might get asked and write out answers for those.
Brian Milner (10:51)
Ha ha.
Tali Shlafer (10:59)
That might get some people results. And if it's getting you results, that's great. But what I really encourage people to do is really reverse engineer your talking points from the job description, from what you know, even, you know, once you've had the conversation with the recruiter, you know, a little bit more about the position than maybe is even listed on the job description. So compile everything that you know about this opportunity and figure out, okay, what are the most important things for me to be able to articulate rather than just guessing at. random questions that the internet says you might get asked.
Brian Milner (11:32)
Yeah, that's a great point. I know we all want to get past that and get to the job, but I think there's also an element there of, let's say you do memorize these questions and they just happen to ask you the exact questions you had prepared for. If you don't really have that knowledge, then you're not going to really do well in that job even if you get it. So it's almost a blessing to not get that job, you know, if you didn't know that information, because they're going to be counting on you to do that. And you're not going to be a you're not going to do your job well then. Yeah.
Tali Shlafer (12:06)
Yeah, and the memorizing piece that you just mentioned is really, really easy for people to fall into the trap of trying to memorize their answers, especially with chat GPT and AI. Everybody's thinking, well, let's use these AI tools to help us come up with interview answers. so we plug in, job seekers will plug in, here's a bunch of questions that I might get. Look at my resume, tell me how can I answer these questions? And it feels safe. It feels like, this very smart robot or technology is gonna say this in a better way than I can.
Brian Milner (12:36)
you
Tali Shlafer (12:40)
But it really sets people up for failure most of the time because number one, most people aren't good at memorizing things, right? Most of us don't have to do that as our job. So most of us are really bad at memorizing. Number two, it makes you sound like a robot. It doesn't sound human. You lose the attention of the person who you're talking with. And number three, doesn't when you just memorize answers rather than thinking about it as what are talking points that I can riff off, riff on and kind of reuse and recycle and tell stories with. When you memorize, it puts you in the position of, well, yeah, it's great if they ask you that exact question. And some questions you will get asked, like tell me about yourself, you're going to get 99 % of the time. But for the most part, if you memorize a set of 10 questions and one of those questions gets a slight variation, or they ask a question that's not on there, you end up panicking. You don't know how to think on your feet because you're reliant on your tool. You've used AI or you've used your script as a strategy rather than a tool.
Brian Milner (13:42)
Yeah, that's a great point. I'm kind of wanting to get your take on this because this is a big thing that I know often comes up in these kinds of interviews is those questions that we all hate to get that you just know, no one ever knows how to answer these things. So I'm just curious how you advise people, you know, the awful question like, you know, give me some of your weaknesses or give me some of the things that you're not good at. How do you advise people to handle those kind of questions when they get asked in interviews?
Tali Shlafer (14:14)
Yeah, so there are definitely some questions that we tend to hear more often than others, especially when it comes to those recruiter interviews. The tell me about yourself, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? Tell me about a time you had to deal with a conflict. Tell me about a time you had to deal with a mistake. Those are pretty common, I would say, in that initial recruiter conversation. It's always an interview in my book. The weakness question I know is one of the that and the tell me about yourself is what really stresses people out.
Brian Milner (14:40)
Ha
Tali Shlafer (14:43)
My general advice for the weakness is actually something that I heard Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychology at Wharton share, which is pick something that is real but not disqualifying. So if you're an Agilist, your weakness should probably not be scrum or not be, you know, understanding business requirements. But it could be something like public speaking.
Brian Milner (15:00)
Ha
Tali Shlafer (15:08)
Or it could be something like delegating, where, you know, it's something real and it's not... It's something authentic. Authenticity is really, really important, especially nowadays in interviews. But it doesn't stop you from being able to perform well. So what I typically advise is pick a weakness, like Adam Grant says, that's real but not disqualifying. And this is important, and where a lot of people miss out, share what are you doing to actually address it? Because what we want to do, the point of that question isn't tell us what's wrong with you so we can judge you and disqualify you from the job. It's the subcontext of it is do you have self-awareness? Are you somebody who is aware enough and humble enough to know your shortcomings? And are you someone who's proactive about fixing them? and about becoming a better person. So the second part of that answer should be, well, what have you done to try to improve? What are specific steps that you've taken in order to improve?
Brian Milner (16:09)
Yeah, that's a great response. I know I've heard the traditional, you try to say one of your strengths as, I guess my weakness is I work too hard, like that kind of thing. Which I agree, it's not sincere. If I'm hearing that and I'm interviewing someone, that could disqualify him in my book, because I could think, this person is not going be honest with me. ⁓
Tali Shlafer (16:20)
Yeah. or the I'm a perfectionist piece? The most common answer to that question.
Brian Milner (16:33)
Alright, I'm a perfectionist, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, you hit on the other big one too, the tell me about yourself. How do you advise people to handle that? Do you have a script in mind? you kind of detail out a couple of things? What's important to hit when someone asks you to just tell me about yourself?
Tali Shlafer (16:54)
Yeah, I'm a big fan of formulas over scripts. So I'll share my formula, but let me share a couple things that derail people. Let's kind of establish what's not helpful. And then we can kind of talk about this formula, which by the way, lots of different career coaches have different formulas. There's not necessarily one that works. It's just pick something and learn to do it really well. A lot of people will go in and start well. I graduated from the University of Washington in 1995, and they give kind of their entire history. And we lose the interviewer right away when we do that. So rather than giving them a chronological history of everything that's happened in your career and asking them, when we do that, we are essentially asking them, hey, here's all this information and data. You make sense of it. You figure out how it's relevant to you. I think it's actually really kind to use a formula to help them understand. Here's everything you need to know about me as it pertains to this role. So taking everything, taking your history and your career through the filter of what is important to demonstrate for this role. So the formula that I teach is sharing a super quick background. Hey, I'm Tali, I've been a project manager for the last 10 years. That's not true, that's not, let me reset that. So I think starting with a very brief.
Brian Milner (18:12)
You
Tali Shlafer (18:16)
sentence about yourself, your relevant role, how long you've had experience. Hey, I'm John. I've been project manager for the last 10 years, sharing the three key skills that you need to have in order to succeed at this job. And for each of those three skills, can you list an accomplishment or a metric or a success story? And we're not telling a whole story. We're just giving them here's the highlight reel, here's the headline, and then you'll click into all of those stories later. So quick little background about yourself, three main skills that you've developed that are relevant for this role, and super high level accomplishment to demonstrate those skills. So that's a little bit, that kind of is the first half, and that talks more about your previous experiences. And then in the second half of this answer, we want to pivot it to the future. So the first half is really about the past, it's about yourself. And then in the second half, we want to pivot to the future. what are you looking for in your next role? And hopefully that thing is also in that, that whatever you're looking for in your next role should dovetail really nicely into what they're offering as a company and as, as a, as an organization. What are you looking for specifically in your next role? And why are you so excited about interviewing with this company? And we want to share something really specific that We want to share something specific that feels personal. Where a lot of people go wrong is they'll share something like, I really want growth in my next role. And I'm excited about this team because I know you guys really value innovation. That doesn't really tell us anything. So we want one level of detail lower. So I'm really excited. What I really want in my next role is more leadership opportunities, so opportunities to mentor. And I'm really excited about this particular opportunities because I looked on your website, I looked at your blog posts, I looked at your, you know, CEO's posts that they share on LinkedIn. And I can tell that this is a really important part of your culture is being able to mentor people up into higher positions, right? Getting that specific, and there's not a right answer. I remember when I was interviewing for... out of college, I was interviewing for T-Mobile for an internship. And my answer was, I've talked to a lot of people, I've networked with a lot of people at T-Mobile. And one thing that really strikes me is the fact that a lot of people will leave for local companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and then they come back. There's a lot of people who spend a lot of time here. really does. There's a lot of loyalty and the culture, like I shared things that are specific to the culture and there's not a right answer here. It just needs to be. specific and it needs to be something that when you talk about it you kind of start getting butterflies because that's contagious.
Brian Milner (21:07)
That's awesome. Well, I want to ask about kind of the other half of the interview or the other portion of the interview as well. They, you know, I often hear people say, you know, you should walk into the interview understanding that it's a two way interview. They're interviewing you, but you're interviewing them as well because you want to know, is this the right place for me? So I can make the right decision about where I'm going to end up. What kind of things do you advise people to ask about or to focus on? What are some things that might expose some hidden things about the organization, warning signs or anything like that that might pop up in an interview to ask about?
Tali Shlafer (21:45)
That's a really good question. think one thing, it really depends on the opportunity and what you're looking for. So I don't think that there's one magic question that if you ask it, oh, the person's gonna be super impressed. Let me back up. What I really like about what you just said, is the framing of the questions that you ask at the end as a two-way conversation and as a way for you to understand more about the company so you can see if it's a good fit. I think a lot of people, especially in tough job markets, tend to kind of close their eyes and hope they get something and they almost blind themselves to the fact that they need to also do the work to make sure that it's a good fit. Or I see a lot of people who go, well, what can I ask that's impressive? What questions can I ask that's going to really wow them at the end, rather than seeing it as an opportunity to really understand what they offer more? So I would sit down and prioritize what is really important for you in a culture. if getting feedback, if growth is important for you, making sure to ask about, can you tell me about recently on your team, somebody who was promoted or how you helped somebody grow in the company? The best way that we can learn about something is through examples. The best proof that somebody values something is through the examples that they share. So we want to ask, kind of like you hear behavioral questions, you get asked, like, tell me about a time when. You can also use that, figure out what's important for you, and then create. Ask questions specifically about those things. One question that I think can be really helpful to get you to get a sense of what kind of person succeeds on this team and what the team really values is kind of the inverse of that. can you tell me about, can you tell me about what type of person doesn't do well here? Because then if they say, you know, The type of person who doesn't do well here isn't committed to working 60 hours a week. They expect to take their vacations and not be able to unplug. That kind of being able to hear who isn't successful gives you some context around some of their values as well.
Brian Milner (24:01)
Yeah, that's an excellent question because I agree. Presumably, this is someone you're going to be working with if you get the job. That immediate relationship, think, is going to really be impactful on the expectations, that sort of thing. Yeah, if I'm interviewing and I ask that kind of question, and they do come back and say, yeah, the person who doesn't work 60 hours or anything. Yeah, that's a good sign that maybe this is, I don't know, unless I enjoy working 60 hours a week, that maybe this is not the right cultural fit for me. So that's an excellent question, because I think that would expose some of that behind the scenes stuff, cultural things. ⁓
Tali Shlafer (24:42)
And you really want to ask about questions about your dynamic with the manager. So what kind of people succeed under them? Because that's the number one people. I believe I'd have to fact check this, but you always hear that the number one people reason people don't like their jobs or people leave their jobs is because of their boss. So you want to understand you're essentially going on a date with them and you want to understand what is it like to hang out with you for 40 hours a week?
Brian Milner (25:05)
you
Tali Shlafer (25:09)
So asking specific questions to really understand what's their working style, what are their expectations, what are their positive experiences, what does feedback look like? Is it a once a year thing? Is it a every time we touch base during our one-on-ones you get feedback? That is really important. The other thing that's important to think about is do you understand the role itself? Like what questions do you have? What gaps in your understanding do you have about the role? Really clarifying to make sure that you know what you're signing up for.
Brian Milner (25:40)
Yeah, that's a great response as well. I know I remember from back in the day getting told that it's a good kind of question to ask what would success look like? If you really got someone to nail this and you were really happy with the hire and it was perfect, what would be the biggest thing that would contribute to that? And I've always liked that approach as well because it kind of gives you the expectation from the start to know here's what's most important in that manager's mind of what they're looking for. Yeah, just in my memory of interviewing people, would say I've never, I don't think I've ever not hired someone because of a question that they asked at the end, but... I have felt sometimes like when they don't ask questions that they're a little unprepared.
Tali Shlafer (26:30)
Yeah, and I think it, I think part of the not asking questions, one is being not prepared, not thinking thoroughly about the job. But it's also a little bit of a sense of desperation, like, I've been applying for four months, I don't care, I'm willing to take anything. So I don't have questions, because let me just take any first job that comes available. There's kind of that mindset. And I think it manifests as, I don't have any questions. And I think
Brian Milner (26:48)
You
Tali Shlafer (26:58)
People can kind of feel that when you're not critical, when you're not trying to figure out, am I really going to be able to succeed here? People kind of pick up on that and it either looks like desperation or it looks like disengagement and disinterest. We want people not, we don't want to hire the first person off the street who can do the job. We want to hire somebody who's excited to be there and who we know isn't going to leave six months later when they find something better.
Brian Milner (27:23)
Yeah, that's really good. Well, this has been really enlightening. I think there's a lot of gems in here that I think people can apply. we all find ourselves in that position from time to time of having to interview for things. As I said, even as a consultant, it's an interview when you talk to a potential new client. So I think these are all really great tips for that. We're going to make sure that there's contact information for Tali at the show notes of this so you can get a hold of her. Anything you want to shout out about, any places you want to point people to to get in contact with you?
Tali Shlafer (27:56)
So for the last few years, I've been posting usually about two short form videos a day to LinkedIn, all the social medias. Over the last couple of years, I've posted over 700 short form videos on social media. I've actually had over a hundred million views on LinkedIn, which is really crazy. Somebody recognized me at the dog park the other day, which was wild. But I created an interview tip-ball that took the best... The most helpful videos the ones that have gone viral received the best feedback gotten people the biggest results in their interviews And I compiled them all in one Interview tip bolt so that's my little thing that I like to share with people You'll see everything in there from how to tell me about yourself To answering why do people ramble and what other mistakes are people making? and also special tips for senior leaders and executives. So that's my little freebie that I like to share out for folks who are interested in the stuff that I'm talking about.
Brian Milner (28:56)
Awesome, awesome. we will definitely make that available to people in the show notes and links to your socials as well so people can follow you and stay on top of your tips as they come out. So thank you so much for coming on, Tali, and I appreciate you spending some time with us and sharing your knowledge with us.
Tali Shlafer (29:13)
Thanks so much, Brian. It was a pleasure.

#154: The Underpowered PO with Barnaby Golden

Join Brian and Barnaby Golden as they dig into a surprisingly common roadblock in Agile teams, the underpowered product owner, and how it quietly derails decision-making, flow, and team momentum.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes Agile coach and community contributor Barnaby Golden to explore the risks and ripple effects of placing a product owner in the role without the authority to own it.
They discuss the stark difference between empowered and underpowered product owners, why availability without authority is a setup for frustration, and how misalignment at the leadership level creates more theater than agility. From trust gaps to political decision-making, Barnaby and Brian unpack the hidden reasons teams get stuck and what it takes to create real, empowered ownership that delivers actual value.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Barnaby Golden
#104: Mastering Product Ownership with Mike Cohn
#3: What Makes a Great Product Owner? With Lance Dacy
How to Engage and Help Busy Product Owners by Mike Cohn
What Happens When For Product Owners
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Barnaby Golden is an experienced Scrum Master and Agile Coach with a knack for helping teams truly live Agile, not just adopt it. Lately, he’s been diving into the real-world use of AI—helping organizations, including nonprofits, turn tech hype into practical, high-impact tools with smart governance
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner
(00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors, we're back. This is another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm here with you as always, Brian Milner, and we have a very special guest with us today. We have Mr. Barnaby Golden with us. Barnaby, welcome in.
Barnaby Golden (00:14)
Thank you, it's good to be here.
Brian Milner (00:16)
Very excited to have Barnaby here. Barnaby is an Agile coach, also a Scrum Master. He is known to us because he is part of our Agile Mentors community. And he is an active member there and has weighed in on several issues and helped people and mentored people through things there. So we wanted to share some of the wisdom of the crowd that we have there at Agile Mentors. Just a few select people that have really contributed. and giving us some really good advice there with the podcast audience as well. So you guys can kind of hear what kind of stuff is there on the Agile Mentors discussion forums. But we were talking about topics here with Barnaby about what we were going to talk about and he proposed one that I really found intriguing. It was focusing around the underpowered product owner, the underpowered PO. And I think that's probably a good place for us to start then, Barnaby. Why don't you kind of just explain to everyone what that idea is, what you mean by the underpowered PO.
Barnaby Golden (01:12)
Sure, of course. So in fact, what I'll do is I'll explain it by giving you the opposite, which is what does a good, effective, powerful product owner look like? And I was working for an organization a few years back, it was a publishing organization. And we had the head of the editorial team was the product owner for a particular Scrum team.
Brian Milner (01:16)
Okay.
Barnaby Golden (01:38)
And this head of editorial had a lot of power and influence in the organization. They were pretty much a decision maker in terms of the products that the team was building. And I remember a particular conversation where the team was talking to this product owner and the team said, look, we know you want to get this, this release out this week, but we've got some technical debt. really need to fix it. And I remember the, this guy saying, look, okay. I'm going to let me think about this for a second. Okay. I can make the decision on this, which is, yep, you can have your time. I'll communicate with others within the organization. The release will be delayed. And that was such a powerful moment because in that second, the decision was made. The product owner trusted the team, the team completely trusted the product owner. And it felt slick and efficient and worked really well. Conversely, I've worked in organizations where in some way, surprisingly enough, product owner is seen as quite a junior role. So I've seen the situation where you have a whole hierarchy of product people and the most junior role in the product organization is the product owner. And what happens in that scenario is the product owner is powerless to make a lot of decisions. So they have to push them up the tree. And in that situation, the conversation between the team and the product owner is the team says, yeah, we need to do this thing. And the product owner says, okay, give me some time. Might be a day and I'll get back to you. Hopefully I can get in contact with other people within my hierarchy and the flows broken. What's the team going to do now? They're going to maybe find something alternative to work on. It's very frustrating. And you sometimes get the situation as well where the the underpowered product owner will sympathize with something the team is saying, but will not be able to make a change because they haven't got the authority to do the change. So they'll say, yeah, I agree with you. I know what you're saying. This is a really bad idea what's being suggested, but I have no choice. We have a roadmap. We've got to meet the roadmap.
Brian Milner (03:45)
Yeah, that's a clear picture. I agree with you that those are two stark contrasts. And what I like about the explanation is you kind of highlight the effectiveness of one versus the ineffectiveness of the other, right? It's just, it's such a dramatic difference when that person is able to make the decisions on the spot. go forward, and the team is just free to move as quickly as possible. Whereas the other one, it's just holdups. It's just delays and obstacles, roadblocks in the team's way. So yeah, a really clear picture there. Just as you were talking about this, I was thinking to myself, well, maybe one of the worthy paths for us to go down here and talking about this. is trying to understand a little bit about the why behind it. ⁓ Because I think there's, just in thinking about it, I think there's maybe several causes for this or several things that might lead to having an underpowered PO. What's been your experience? What kind of things have you seen that might contribute to an underpowered PO?
Barnaby Golden (04:36)
Hmm. I think the main reason, the biggest driving factor behind it is the feeling that the people with the authority to make decisions do not have time to spend with the team. So you've got your head of product or the real decision makers in the organization. They are saying, I can't spend two, three hours a week with a team. I can't go to a planning meeting. got, you know, I'm a busy person. I've got things on my schedule. So they see the product owner role as a stand-in for themselves with the team. And this stand-in has lots of time to spend with the team, which is good. And that's a powerful thing. But at the same time, if they've not got the authority to make decisions, then maybe that time is not effectively spent.
Brian Milner (05:41)
Yeah, it's almost as if they just want a warm body there. It's a placeholder. You're here as a placeholder for me because I can't be two places at once. I've heard a couple of things that people will frequently point to that a product owner needs to be successful. And there's sort of this dichotomy of these two things that are part of that. And that's the kind of empowered
Barnaby Golden (05:44)
Yeah.
Brian Milner (06:05)
product owner that is empowered to make decisions versus having the availability to actually be present with the team. it's always, it seems like that's a fracture point that sometimes causes this because you have the leaders who, hey, I need to make all the decisions, but I don't have the availability. and the people that they know have the availability, they don't want to empower to make the decisions. So they're kind of setting up their product owners to fail.
Barnaby Golden (06:35)
I think it's a classic example as well with when you want to be an agile organization, you can't just have pockets of agility. You can't just have a scrum team and say, well, that's where we'll be agile in this scrum team. The entire organization as a whole has to think in the agile mindset. And if you want to be able to adapt to change, then one of the ways you're to have to do that is you're going to have to have the decision makers close to the teams that are implementing the decisions. and so you can't have your, your cake and not eat it. If you see what I mean in terms of, you, you can't pick and choose the aspects of agile that you want. need to, as an organization, adopt the whole thing.
Brian Milner (07:17)
Yeah, that's always one thing I try to tell people as well is when you're selecting a product owner, when you're trying to decide who's the right person to be the product owner for this team, those are two of the things you have to really consider strongly is does this person have the availability to be here with the team and is this person empowered to make decisions? I've run up against leaders before that don't want to empower someone and Kind of the counterpoint I give them a lot of times is, I don't know, I think maybe in their head they're thinking this is giving someone free reign to make really long-term decisions on their own when that's not really the case. The product owner can be fully empowered, but the decisions that they're making on the spot are just a couple of week decisions. It's not a six month decision. there's gonna be sprint reviews, we're gonna display stuff and get feedback and we can course correct and all those things. So once you can kind of put it in that frame that it's really just a couple of weeks that you're empowering them to make decisions, I've had more success framing it that way. I don't know, what about you?
Barnaby Golden (08:23)
Yeah, I think that makes a huge amount of sense. The fear is loss of control. So the fear is that by empowering the product owner, they might do something which they would regard as a mistake. And they will often see themselves, because they're in a senior position, they see themselves as being responsible. So if they're responsible and the product owner makes a decision they don't like, perhaps that will reflect poorly on them. So there's a trust issue here. A good product owner is going to be consulting their stakeholders anyway. And I would think the, the senior product leadership team is part of their stakeholders. So you would hope that they were keeping them very, very up to date on their thinking that there would be no great surprises that they wouldn't do something, you know, suddenly switch from one product to a completely different product. They would always be keeping their stakeholders in the loop. And in which case. they would be building up the trust of the people around them and then you would hope that over time that they would become more empowered.
Brian Milner (09:23)
Yeah. Yeah. I just, I kind of wonder if that's maybe part of it, that the, they have a misunderstanding of kind of how the role works. You know, cause maybe they, maybe they see it as completely independent. This person is just making decisions on their own without consulting anyone. Maybe that's because that's how they do their job.
Barnaby Golden (09:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Milner (09:49)
So they may look at that as, know, this is how I would do it, so why wouldn't this person do it the same way? Well, that's not how it's designed. It's designed to be done in concert.
Barnaby Golden (09:59)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's a misunderstanding of the product owner role. And it's also a misunderstanding of why the product owner role came about, which is the reason it was there was to solve the problem of too many chefs, of too many people trying to make decisions. So there's huge value in the role. But the value in the role only comes about if that person can actually take ownership of the product. I mean, the clue's in the name, isn't it? They are the owner of the product, so therefore they can make the critical on the ground decisions, but all the time talking to their stakeholders. So, I mean, as with many things in Scrum, it's about a misunderstanding, a general misunderstanding of what the roles are within the Scrum team.
Brian Milner (10:41)
Yeah, I think they also have the fear of the wrong decision that somehow that's going to lock them in or this person's not equipped to make the right decisions that they are the knowledge expert for the product. so they should be the one making all the decisions. They have the authority. I have had a couple of cases where I've had to have difficult conversations with leaders to say, well, let's examine the decision. because you're looking at them as making the wrong decision, but is it the wrong decision? You're disconnected from the day-to-day of the team. This person is fully connected to the day-to-day, and they're more likely to have more current knowledge. And it's not always the case that just because you assume it's the wrong decision that it actually is, they may actually be right and you could be wrong.
Barnaby Golden (11:30)
And funny enough, this brings on to another topic I'm greatly interested in, which is the definition of value. And that is if there is no clear understanding within the organization of value, then decisions become arbitrary. You know, we decide to do X rather than Y in the product. Well, why did you decide to do that? Well, because it was my decision to do that. Yeah, but is there a rationale behind it? Do you have a definition of the value of X and the value of Y? and why you chose one over the other. And I think that's part of the problem as well. The kinds of organizations that don't have empowered product owners also typically don't have a definition of value.
Brian Milner (12:08)
Yeah, I completely agree. I know I've had conversations in classes where I've talked to people about how when you're prioritizing, when you're looking at things in your backlog, and we always say you prioritize according to value. Well, what's the value? What's the value of doing that thing? And so many times, I think there are organizations that can't really identify what it is. Why are we doing this thing? because it sounded cool, because it seemed like the right thing to do, it just felt right? No, we're doing it so that it does something, it creates some outcome for us. And if you can't even really define what that outcome is that you're hoping it achieves, well, isn't that the start of the problem?
Barnaby Golden (12:55)
And I think part of the root cause of that as well is the tendency for these types of organizations to do long-term planning. So what they'll often do is they'll have a roadmap for the year and they'll say in this roadmap for the year, we will achieve all these things. And then it becomes less about delivering value and more about delivering the roadmap. And I've had conversations with product owners where I've said to them, you do realize what we're doing doesn't make sense. And they say, yeah, of course they do, but I'm not being measured. on sense or the delivery of value, I'm being measured on whether or not I meet the roadmap. And that was what's important to me. You can see how all these elements are tied together within the organization.
Brian Milner (13:28)
Right. Right? Yeah. No, that's an excellent point. And you're absolutely right. So much of our metrics and some of the things that we judge teams on or performance by is basically just a volume kind of metric. And it's how much stuff is being produced. that's not value. Volume does not equal value. Value can be achieved with much less a lot of the times. And if we're This is why sometimes I'll advise product owners in classes to say, look, start up your sprint review. Maybe go back and look at some things that you've done recently and show the metric that you're using for that thing to see if it's successful. Because if the team's done something in the past three or four sprints and it's actually moved the value needle some way, it's increased customer satisfaction. added new members to our site, whatever the thing is, right? If you can show that kind of business value to it, my experience is that people stop focusing as much on volume, because that's volumes of means to the end, which is the value.
Barnaby Golden (14:40)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I've noticed as well in these types of organizations is that the value they're focused on is the incremental, is not the incremental delivery. It's usually a new feature or something like that competing. And what you often find is that the teams are not end value creators. They're often parts of... the creation of value. rather than the whole creation of value, there may be a component of it. And because of that, people will say, well, there's no direct link between you and value creation in the organization. And I find that is very problematic. And it really flies against the rationale of Scrum, which is that you want within each sprint, you want to deliver some incremental value. And if you can't measure it, if you can't... clearly define what that value is. And as you were saying, if the product owner can't stand in the sprint review and say, well, this is the value we've delivered. How does the team keep motivated? How do they keep passionate about what they're doing?
Brian Milner (15:50)
Yeah. Yeah. I think part of that is just trying to put yourselves in the shoes of your customers and try to look about what they would find as being really valuable. I don't know about you. know, well, I'm sure this applies to you as well. But we all are consumers of different software products, whether that's a business software product or even games or other things that we would use. And when they come out with new releases of those things, they come out with release notes. Now, when they come out with the release notes, are you looking at the release notes and going, wow, I'm satisfied. There's a ton of things that's in this release. Or are you looking through the individual items and going, well, I don't care about that. I don't care about that. I don't care about this. That thing, oh yeah, that's important to me. Right? That's what we do. And that's a clear picture of value over volume.
Barnaby Golden (16:49)
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that gets in the way here is a lot of it is the pride of the management team. So they often have strong self belief. They believe they make, they believe by definition, the decisions they're making are powerful decisions. So, I, it's also, think one of the reasons why a lot of organizations don't aren't data driven. You would hope they would. produce a feature and then measure whether or not that feature was a success. But that's not as common as it should be. There's very rarely business metrics tracked against deliveries. I mean, I'm generalizing here. There are many organizations do this very well. But I found there's quite a few organizations that don't really do that. And it leads to a disconnect with the customers. I mean, I can think of an example that we're... an organization I was working at where they worked on a feature delivery for six months that was on the roadmap and they got it done and they shipped it. And I think the expected users were tens of thousands and they got 16 users for this feature. And at that point there wasn't even a post-mortem. They didn't even look back and say, well, what are the lessons learned here? It was like, that's shame. Let's move on to the next item on the roadmap and hope that works instead. And it's very frustrating, especially because the feel of a good Scrum team is the connection with the customers and the feeling that you can see the passion in the engineers and in the team's eyes because they're delivering things that people want and they feel connected to it. And it means they work better and they work more effectively.
Brian Milner (18:22)
Yeah, there's no worse feeling than building something no one uses. I used to joke with the team, it's kind of like that old joke about if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around us, makes, if we build software that nobody uses, did we build it? It's not going to be used for anything. So it didn't serve any purpose.
Barnaby Golden (18:31)
You Yeah. Yeah, the way I like to think of it is that an organization should not view people's time spent in the job as important. What they should view is the value that that person has delivered as important. So sometimes people will say, know, yeah, okay, we delivered a feature that nobody really used, but you you did your job, you came in for eight hours a day during that time. And that's hard for people, I think, because they feel like this is my life. I'm investing time and energy into this. Yeah, the money is important, of course. I'm doing it as a career. But at the same time, I also want to feel reward. I want to feel like I'm achieving something. And I think with that element, you get so much better performance from the team if they feel that.
Brian Milner (19:26)
I agree. There's another thing I was thinking of here too, when we were talking about underpowered POs. Another cause I think that maybe you've encountered or seen as well, but screwy things that people do with kind of personnel. Like for example, having multiple product owners for a team, that leads to underpowered product owner or the opposite even putting a product owner on too many teams. That's going lead to underpowered POs as well. What's been your experience with that? Have you seen that? Okay.
Barnaby Golden (19:54)
I have one extreme example where there was an engineering team and the organization was an international organization. And politically within the organization, it was unacceptable to have one backlog. They had to have a backlog for the UK, a backlog for the US, a backlog for Australia, backlog for other areas of the world. And the team then had to... prioritize them kind of in this wild order. So they would say, right, we'll take number one from UK, number one from US. And so there was no coherence to what they were building at all. It was really just about satisfying people within the organization. And it kind of brings you back to that key point about why do we have product owners? Because product owners, they narrow down all the ambiguity, they narrow down all the possibilities to the thing that's most effective for the team to do next.
Brian Milner (20:47)
Yeah, I like your example because it highlights kind of what I think about those scenarios a lot of times is that they're theater. They're an act. They're not really serving the purpose, but they're making someone or helping someone to feel a sense of security about something that really they shouldn't feel. It's not there, but it has the appearance of it. It has the stage set.
Barnaby Golden (20:55)
Hmm. Yeah.
Brian Milner (21:11)
of something that looks secure, you know?
Barnaby Golden (21:13)
Yeah. mean, whenever somebody mentioned that to me, the first thing I always think about is the length of the backlog. I've worked in organizations where they could not achieve the backlog in 10 years if the team kept at it. And yet people within the organization say, yeah, I'm not worried. My feature request is on the backlog. And I'm thinking, yeah, but we're adding 10 new items a week and we're only completing eight. So in fact, you're moving further down the backlog. You're not actually getting closer to. being done. And it's, it's, it's a disconnect to gain. And this is what it's all about. Good agility, good scrum is when there's a strong connection. And if you start having that, that just doing things for appearances sake, then you lose that connection.
Brian Milner (21:55)
Yeah, and it really is kind of that fundamental flaw that we try to address throughout Scrum of transparency. When you do those kind of theater-ish things to give the appearance of something, it's the opposite of being transparent. You're trying to make it more difficult to see the reality. Yeah, it's on the backlog, so you have this false sense of security. It's on the backlog. It's never gonna get done, but... that's not transparent that it's never going to get done because it's on the backlog. Yeah, mean, part of that I put on the product owner a little bit, but that could also be that the organization demands it. Like your example with it having different backlogs across different geographies, does it serve a purpose? Well, maybe the purpose is to make someone feel better. That, hey, my thing's number one on our list, but...
Barnaby Golden (22:39)
Yeah.
Brian Milner (22:43)
That doesn't mean it's number one, that's the next thing that's going get done. It's theater.
Barnaby Golden (22:47)
And it was done exactly for that reason. I mean, it was done because they didn't want to alienate the heads of the individual countries. So they wanted to make them feel like they were going to get something even though they weren't going to get it. Which is really frustrating.
Brian Milner (22:59)
I've seen that as well with the multiple product owners. When there's a team that has multiple product owners, a lot of times that's a theater kind of thing as well, because there's a, I don't know if there's a fear that someone's gonna feel undervalued if they're not called the product owner. But it just seems like, yeah, we want all these voices to be involved with it, which again, maybe it's a misunderstanding of the product owner role. That's okay, you can have multiple voices involved, but you gotta define who's the decision maker. And if a team doesn't know that, that's gonna cause a whole host of problems.
Barnaby Golden (23:34)
Absolutely. I mean, I've been in scenarios where you would have multiple product owners. The team has been instructed by a product owner to go in a direction and then midway through a sprint, the other product owner will come along and say, yeah, that's not really what I had in mind for this sprint. Can you please switch onto this other thing? And as a, you know, I was a scrum master at the time and what I ended up doing in my sprint report was I would say, and the team lost 20 to 30 % of their capacity in switching. between what one product owner wanted and what the other product owner wanted. And that at least got a reaction because people said, well, OK, maybe that's not a good thing if we're losing output from the team. But it's a failure of the organization to make value judgments and make genuine decisions. Instead, it becomes political decisions.
Brian Milner (24:19)
Yeah. Well, I'll give you my trick for when I've encountered it as a consultant a couple of times, I usually just ask one question and it'll clear it up. I'll just go to them and whoever the leader is that's insisting that there's multiple product owners on the team, I'll just go and say, all right, what happens when, let's say it's two, what happens when those two people disagree? And usually the immediate thing I hear back is, oh, no, no, no, they get along. They usually understand.
Barnaby Golden (24:45)
You
Brian Milner (24:47)
And I always just counteract it really quickly and say, yeah, but what happens when they don't? What happens when the day comes when one of the product owners wants something that's number one and the other one wants an entirely different thing as the number one priority, who makes the call? And usually they'll point to one of them and say, push comes to shove that one. right. I mean, at that point, I just say, well, you just told me that's your product owner, right?
Barnaby Golden (25:08)
got a little bit more authority so they make the decision here.
Brian Milner (25:15)
That's the product on the other person's a stakeholder, which is fine. There's nothing devaluing about someone who's a stakeholder. They can work all day every day with that product owner.
Barnaby Golden (25:24)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that people feel if they're not in the product owner role, then they will just be another stakeholder and maybe they won't have as loud a voice. But what's so frustrating about the situation is when you see it done well, when you see it done effectively with a really good empowered product owner, a very motivated team, it's such a powerful thing. And I mean, it's why I stayed in Agile for so long is because I know how good it can be and It's very frustrating and I guess I have sympathy for organizations because maybe if they've never seen it done well, it's difficult for them to understand how just how effective it is.
Brian Milner (26:00)
Yeah, I agree. Well, this has been a great discussion. I really like this topic. It's great to focus on product owners a little bit. And hopefully, maybe there is a leader out there or somebody listening who heard some of these things and thought, you know what? Maybe it is time to give our product owner a little more power. We talk about testing things all the time, inspecting and adapting as we go. Well, leaders, try that.
Barnaby Golden (26:25)
Yeah, maybe just try it as an experiment. You know, if you're concerned, give it a go.
Brian Milner (26:27)
Yeah. Yeah. Give it a shot and see what happens. You may like it, and you may decide this is the best way to go. So yeah, I think that's a great suggestion. Well, Barnaby, this has been great. I really appreciate you making time for this. thanks for not only being on the show, but for the contributions you made in the Agile Mentors community as well.
Barnaby Golden (26:47)
Well thanks a lot Brian, I really enjoyed that, it was a great conversation.

#153: Getting Real Buy-In for Agile Transformation with Scott Dunn

Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they unpack what “buy-in” actually means and what it takes to move from surface-level support to genuine commitment in this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined once again by Scott Dunn to tackle a listener-chosen topic: how to get real buy-in for Agile initiatives, especially when shifting from a non-Scrum environment.
They explore why buy-in isn’t about enthusiastic cheerleading or deep Agile knowledge, but about leaders and teams aligning on desired outcomes. From the cost of performative support to the emotional side of change, Brian and Scott share practical strategies for securing support at all levels of the organization. Along the way, they dive into influence tactics, the importance of shared purpose, and how co-creation—not compliance—drives lasting change.
Whether you're guiding a large transformation or simply trying to influence up, this episode will help you rethink how to earn trust, build alignment, and inspire meaningful momentum.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Scott Dunn
Elements of Agile Assessment
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:01)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And I also have with me today someone that you probably know pretty well because he took over this podcast for about a month there. Mr. Scott Dunn is with us. Welcome in, Scott.
Scott Dunn (00:19)
Hey, thanks Brian. Yes, that podcast takeover was a lot of fun. So thank you for that opportunity. That was a hoot. Had a great time.
Brian Milner (00:25)
Absolutely. Well, I don't think I publicly thanked you for that. just ⁓ a public thanks.
Scott Dunn (00:28)
No, you didn't. No, not even an email. Not even a Slack message.
Brian Milner (00:33)
Well, very public thanks to you for doing that. Those episodes were great. I enjoyed them and it was fun to be a listener. It was fun to listen to it and just kind of hear the conversations and be a fly on the wall for those. So thanks again for doing that.
Scott Dunn (00:47)
Yeah. Yeah. It's a real treat.
Brian Milner (00:48)
We're having Scott on we kind of ran an experiment on this one because we were Scott was teaching a class for mountain goat and We thought maybe we'll just see what the class thinks so we pulled the class to see what topic do you want us to talk about and We thought we'd just go with the winner the winner that came out of that class was how to get buy-in How do you get buy-in in a? move from a non-scrum place to a Scrum kind of way of working. How do you get buy-in in the organization and buy-in from others? So when I was thinking about this as a topic, I think the first thing that popped in my head Scott about this was What do we mean by buy-in? So what does that mean to you?
Scott Dunn (01:33)
Right. So sometimes what I'm hearing is people saying like, buy in, you know, they, I would hear a common complaint, like they don't get it. They don't understand. don't, for me, buy in isn't that they need to understand agile or scrum and these types of things and how it works. Buy in is they get, they give their support kind of regardless. So my favorite example of that is walking into, this is a multi vendor effort we're doing on a Salesforce implementation. And we'd asked for the VP of the whole thing to come down and say some words before we had our first retrospective. You can imagine it's going to be kind of heated with different vendors trying to make each other look bad or whatever. And he'd said, yes. So we're coming down into this, you know, big high stakes meeting. And I just remember him saying, you know, I'm so excited to be doing this for you all. It's great. And he kind of falls in and looks at me says, what am I doing again? Cause he didn't, he didn't know, he didn't know what a retrospective was. He just knew he was asked to come and do something around that. And to me, Brian,
Brian Milner (02:21)
Ha
Scott Dunn (02:28)
That's fine. He's showing up. He's letting everyone know this way of working is important. It's important to me. It's important to success. And he probably couldn't tell you any of the meetings or artifacts or anything in scrum, right? But that's still what we need.
Brian Milner (02:39)
So. Yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it because I think a lot of people sometimes think of buy-in, like everyone's clapping and waving scrum flags around and all that stuff. And I don't think that's really buy-in. I think it's just the willingness to honestly try it, to give it a shot and be open about what would work and what doesn't work. The opposite of that is the resistance, know, of just being resistant to it and saying, I'm gonna put up hurdles and walls in the way of this being successful. That's, think, what needs to be avoided.
Scott Dunn (03:18)
Right, right. think that some of what was helped is to give them the, for me, the mindset of their buy-in isn't about doing things right. They're not saying, we're really wanted. We really want a new process. We were getting asked to come in because they're not getting the results they want. So buy-in for me from their perspective is how to help get the results that they're looking for. And they'll support us to get those results. So I don't talk to them about some of the aspects of an empirical process or any of that. I sort of say, you in order to get things faster or in order to improve quality, right? And that's how they get behind that. I think sometimes people are preaching some of the process part, even if they could understand that's not really what they're about. But I think they even struggle to understand what we're talking about. So yeah, it's hard for them to get behind and support us when they're not tracking. They simply know there's a pain point we're having. Can we talk about that and how to get what we need and what do you need from me to get that? Great. But I think we We can do ourselves a favor by helping point to the same target, make sure we're aligned with the same target they want. And maybe they'll give us more support if they feel like, yeah, you're tracking with me. I want to come in talk about, you know, more collaboration. Like we already have enough meetings. That's what, that's what I heard. Right. But I'll come and talk about faster time to market. Well, yeah, now they're interested in talking about what they need to do, you know, that I'm asking them to get behind that. I think that's fair.
Brian Milner (04:28)
Right. Yeah, I think there's also an element there, because I know we're both kind of fans of and users of kind of the path to agility framework from our friend David Hawks. And I love the part of that that's trying to establish the motivation, the purpose from the outset to try to say, What's the thing we hope to get out of this? And I think that's really crucial in getting buy-in that you can't just tell people, hey, we're gonna be a Scrum organization now. Why? Because I tell you that's what we're gonna do, because we're gonna check off the box and say that we're now Scrum. That's not motivating to anyone. if I can say, no, we're gonna... go through this change because here's the end result. Here's what we're trying to get to. Here's what we think will be better. If I can lay that out, then I've got a purpose behind it. And now I have motivation to go forward with this difficult change and learning what's expected of me and all that stuff. But if that's not done, I feel like that's a crucial misstep in that.
Scott Dunn (05:44)
Yeah, I wanted to add to that, that that point about the clarity of the goals is really something that has sticking power. And we had a client, I came and was working with him this year that he had remembered from the last year as the CTO. He's remembering from last year that we had done that same exercise or what are the goals that leadership has. And he remembered it was quality and customer satisfaction. That had been over a year since we had done that, but that not only stuck with him, but we came back to the group and kind of had a fun poll. Like, everyone remember? They remembered. And so every time we're having a decision we're trying to make about should it be this way or that way on the process, the different, were doing the race, the matrix work, et cetera, people kept coming back to, well, is that going to help us in terms of quality? Is that going to help us in terms of customer staff? We're not going into the nuts and bolts of Scrum or these other approaches. It's simply what's the business goal. will that help us hit the goal? And when the leader hears you using their language that they get, like that's my goal, they're feeling like, okay, whatever you need to do, sounds like you understand what I'm after, right? It's really powerful. But I like that you mentioned that, because when we go through that exercise, always super clear, we don't get confused. Times when we lead with, especially on the executives trying to lead with explaining Scrum, you can tell sometimes they're not really tracking or they're following along, okay, so what's the point?
Brian Milner (06:59)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (06:59)
Yeah, you start off with what's their goals. They're like, great, this is exactly what I want to talk about. And then, Hey, you're not doing the things you need to do to hit those goals. Oh, okay. What are they? I mean, I remember one time a couple of years back, literally when the coach was presenting the results of that assessment towards their goals, they cut them off in the middle of his presentation. Just says, well, why, why is it, you why is that red? Why are we not hitting the goal? What do need to do? And they just started solving the problem right then he couldn't even finish his presentation. Talk about getting support. And he had been there six years saying,
Brian Milner (07:23)
Wow.
Scott Dunn (07:27)
Scott, they're not gonna buy into doing this transformation team and the scrum work. He couldn't even finish, I think, a couple of slides and they gave him everything he wanted, right? Powerful, powerful.
Brian Milner (07:36)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good point. I also think one of the reasons that there's, you know, and that kind of parallels it. One of the reasons there's a lack of buy-in in general is that it's sort of targeted to just one area. You know, like this is a team thing. The teams are going to get trained, but the leaders have no idea really what's going on. They're kind of separated off from this. And I think that's a big part of the problem as well is you get buy-in when they see the leaders have bought in. So are the leaders bought in? Are the leaders on board with this? If they're not, then the rest of the group isn't going to be bought in either.
Scott Dunn (08:18)
People are smart. They're watching which way the wind's blowing. to be honest, Brian, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I tell people, I don't even care if they genuinely believe in that or not. If they're getting behind it because that's the way the politics are going, hey, they're getting out of the way. We're getting things done. Fine by me. Right. So partly when we're getting that by now, so make sure leaders, are you communicating this clearly? Because some of your people are either not on board or they're kind of waiting to see, this a fad or is this going to blow over? I need you to really communicate that clearly, et cetera, to see if people are get on board with that or not. Or, and on the other side, if I feel like some of these folks are not on board and I do feel like I have leadership support, I need to escalate that pretty quickly and make sure you understand, know, because they might get mad at you or me for talking about scrum and changing things. I'm like, I didn't knock down the door and come in myself. I was asked to come in here by someone who has authority. So maybe you need to clarify that with them, whether we're doing this or not. But don't get mad at me.
Brian Milner (09:04)
Right.
Scott Dunn (09:11)
So I will check them on that and clarify with the leadership to say, let's make sure your people are in alignment as well. If we do have that buy-in for sure.
Brian Milner (09:20)
Yeah. I saw another kind of quote about this that really got my brain working a little bit. Cause it was talking about the cost of fake buy-in and it was, it was kind of saying, you know, performative buy-in might actually, you know, it was asking the question, is performative buy-in worse than just outright resistance? And I don't know. Let me ask you that. What do you think? Do you think performative buy-in is worse than just someone who's resistant?
Scott Dunn (09:28)
Interesting. Yeah. As someone that just gave an example of performative buy-in. So if you would ask me a week ago, I might have gave a different answer, but someone was talking about this is a wildly different aspect of this, but you did ask me to join. So you get what you get. ⁓ They're talking about the difference of discrimination in the US versus South Africa. And they said, what's the difference? And they said in South Africa, it was blatant. no, you're a person of color. You cannot buy property here. That's how it is. Here, it's more like
Brian Milner (09:59)
You
Scott Dunn (10:14)
Yeah, we're looking at your loan application and I don't know if you can buy in this way. So it's subtle. And this person actually said, I'll take the outright blatant discrimination of South Africa, where at least you know what the issue is versus the subtle one. So maybe to that point with what you're saying, maybe it is better to have outright resistance and then say, well, at least I know who's on board or not. Rather than the person says they're on board, but every time they're in a meeting, they come out meeting and we don't get the decisions made we need. That's funny.
Brian Milner (10:39)
Yeah. Yeah. When I read this and started to think about it, I kind of had that same conclusion that like when someone's being outright resistant, yeah, it's an obstacle, but it's honest. And, you know, I'd rather have the honesty because they're trying to, they're still acting their way because they have a belief that their way is the right way to do it. And so they're throwing up a resistance because they're honestly resistant to it. Whereas someone who just sort of nods in meetings and claps along and, know, oh yeah, sure, great. But then they're kind of in the quiet, you know, behind the scenes and the hallway conversations. That's insidious. That's something that I can't really deal with. And it's like, you know, let's have the discussion. Let's talk about it. And, you know, if you win, then great. Why not have the courage to just have the conversation and see which idea wins?
Scott Dunn (11:39)
Right. on that note, think for everyone's sake, Brian, if we could be honest for a moment, not that we haven't been honest in these other podcasts, but in this, in this moment, we're really going to be honest. Would you, would, do you feel at times that our culture, our company cultures actually teach people to do just what you said to not be honest, but then like be like, you know, politically savvy, don't say what you really think, but then you're going to kind of be subversive and undermine that thing. And I've dealt with that so many times, I'll show up to a meeting like, I would have swore we were on board. had that one-on-one and now you're not saying in the meeting that you go on board with that. So people might've gotten coached. It's actually not safe to be honest and have good clear spirited debate because there's a price to pay if they do that. And they maybe 10 years in corporate can kind of teach you don't be honest or they're trying to read the tea leaves about what you think it's going to be. And so, yeah, I definitely would rather take it. Maybe it's part of the mindset of trying to really check, you know, where people are at. If I go back to my early days of coaching, those one-on-ones of having the level of honesty to really know where people are at. That was, think, some of the power. And I think some of that came from genuinely caring about the people, wanting them to succeed, wanting them win, even if it wasn't going to be at this company because of all the change or whatever. I did feel people felt like I really was open and honest with them and transparent and had their back. I would hear some real things about how they really felt because they didn't feel like there was a payback for that. And that allowed me to actually say, well, you know what, if you're really not on board, let's see what we can do as far as another opportunity. Maybe it's a positional switch we can do or whatever that was. Because I mean, this did affect people's jobs in some ways. And I think maybe if I don't have those one-on-ones, they're probably just going to give lip service because they don't know if anyone there really has their back in a turbulent time of change. AI is a great example of that, right? Hey, we want to move forward with AI. Well, what's the impact of my job if we do? But no one's really talking about that, right? It's all positive and all that. So I think people are trying to read that too. But you bring up a good point. I think I would take the direct as long as they feel like they can safely be open and honest.
Brian Milner (13:31)
Yeah. Yeah, well, even that question, right? What effect is AI gonna have on my job? And the honest answer I think that someone has to give right now is, don't know. I feel like I understand what it is today, but I don't know that that's gonna be the same way tomorrow because this technology changes so fast, so I can't promise anything. But here's what it is today and this is the paradigm we're trying to live in. So I think that there's an honesty component there that you've got a mirror to say, hey, I'm going to be honest with you. You be honest with me about this. And we'll be upfront with each other as we make our way through this. yeah, so yeah, think that kind of being honest and taking that approach, I think, is the right way to go. I also think that being kind of a reverting back before you get into things like, here's what a Scrum Master is, here's what a product owner is. You've got to start with the basics and mindset kind of culture things. You have to start with transparency, inspection, adaptation. That's really the way to go. And if we buy into those sorts of things initially, then we can start to say, well, here's a practice that supports that. Now you understand why we're doing this practice because it does this thing. Without it, it's just sort of one of those things of do as I tell you, you know, and that doesn't get buy-in. We've got to see the why behind it.
Scott Dunn (14:48)
Yes. Yeah, I think so. That's a great point. I was just making a note because sometimes we come in about agile. Some of the folks when I'm sharing this, it's maybe is new to them that I try to really present it. I want what you want. So even down to the words and then I kind of map back to that. So for example, if if we have quality problems now, I might believe in say an agile practice like mob programming, but I don't want to bring up like, hey, we should try mobbing. because it's cool or because you know, whatever, they don't care about that. But oh, they have a quality concern. Hey, boss, I've been thinking about, you know, these quality issues. I got an idea that I think it really could help with quality. But if I was to ask you, Brian, is is Bobby gonna, does Bobby help with quality? Does Bobby help me with, you know, cross training and tearing down knowledge silos and sharing learning? And I think, well, it does a lot of things, I pitch it towards what management wants. So agile as a means to an end. So I want what you want. And if I can't get that clarity that I want what you want, I need to be listening more because if I feel like I come to them talking, I've seen from my own experience, I come talking about better collaboration. That's not what's on their mind. I'm literally losing credit with them because they're like, why are you bringing this up? Like this isn't even our concern right now. Right. So I'm losing trust. I'm losing political capital. So I listen intently what their concerns are, the things I think that are important or that can get that. Then I'm going to pitch it. I'm going to pitch it in that language even like, you know, that what these are the things that would help on. I want what you want.
Brian Milner (16:00)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (16:18)
the sport, I'll even research stuff to find out. So maybe I gave an example recently, when I was a manager for a web development, team that they wanted bigger monitors, of course, and I couldn't get approval for the bigger monitors. so I went and researched, I knew that always we had pressure to deliver more. I researched until I found somewhere someone had to study the show that larger monitors help productivity. And then I brought that to him and like, Hey, I'm looking for ways to improve the team productivity. I think I found something. What is it Scott?
Brian Milner (16:30)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Dunn (16:46)
Well, larger monitors, you can tell us, Smollick, really? You've been asking for this for months. I said, no, there's a study that proves it. Now he approved it right then. But partly I wonder, Brian, is I was also giving him air cover for when he gets flack from the other departments. Why does Scott's team get the special monitors? Well, it improves productivity. And right. He's got a reason now. Otherwise, it looks like maybe he's just playing favorites or something else. Right. We're all watching costs. So I will do the research to say, hey, I want what you want. I'll go and I'll go and dig it up.
Brian Milner (17:04)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (17:13)
Someone somewhere must've said it's gonna help. So I'll bring that to them. It ⁓ worked.
Brian Milner (17:17)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. you're giving him the why behind it. You're telling him, hey, here's something that's in. It's the old outcome argument that the outcome from having larger monitors is this, that we have this productivity. I know you want greater productivity, so here's a means to do that. And I think that's kind of the way that this, you in a nutshell, what we're trying to say here is, you know, I can't go into a company, your boss comes into your company tomorrow and says, hey everyone, we're switching to pens that write in green ink, because we're a green ink company. We just, we want to be known as the green ink company from now on, because it's better. So everyone, make sure you switch to green ink. I mean, they do it. But there's a difference between compliance and real commitment. ⁓ And that's the difference, I think, is, all right, you wanted to switch to green ink, but why? What's the point behind it? I'll do it, but I'll be committed to it if you tell me, well, studies show that when people read in green ink. I mean, that kind of thing can make an impact. But otherwise, it's like you're
Scott Dunn (18:08)
Yes. ⁓ Absolutely.
Brian Milner (18:31)
It's almost like an insult to the intelligence of someone, you know, to say, we're going to do this crazy new thing called a standup, you know, or daily scrum or whatever. And well, why are we doing that? I don't know. Cause right. That they tell us that's what we're supposed to do. Well, we have to stand up for a meeting. Why are we standing up? Why aren't we just sitting down? It's more comfortable. I don't know, but that's what you do in a daily scrum is you stand up. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's that kind of a thing that I think.
Scott Dunn (18:34)
yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
Brian Milner (18:58)
if you don't lay the groundwork of here's why, then they're gonna just react with the way that you would switch to green ink. ⁓ Scott Dunn (19:05) I love that example. love that. And we've all been there, right? When someone says, why would we do this? I'm like, I actually don't know. It's a terrible feeling. I don't know. We go through all this effort to do just that. And you mentioned that compliance, compliance will never have their heart and soul and energy into this. So think that that's a big deal for them as well. When leaders are, we had something happen where it's a large financial institution and their data engineering group.
Brian Milner (19:11)
You're right. Yeah.
Scott Dunn (19:33)
You're like, yeah, AI is not really, you know, for us, not important to us. Which is interesting, right? Then the next week, like that, the head of that group, their boss's boss says, we need to be using, AI. Well, guess who makes it announced at the very next week. We need to get going with AI, So some of this is like, look, if they're pushing those things, we also want to make sure that they're in a position to look good for their bosses, those types of things. Right? So one, you know, giving them air cover, but two, listen to the winds of those things. If we make them successful, I mean, this is old school, right? Make your boss look good. My goodness. If they feel like that's happening, then you're going to get a lot more support. And this is a good example of a radical change for a whole data engineering team, just because the boss's boss says so. So now we're going to do it. I think looking for even those opportunities and following through on what that might be bringing them ideas that make them look good and generating that as well. I love the green ink one. just now it makes me want to be that we're the green ink company. You're we're going to be known for this.
Brian Milner (20:23)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (20:29)
⁓ But why?
Brian Milner (20:30)
Yeah. I think it's also kind of important that you acknowledge that there is an emotional impact here. And this gets into kind of the idea of the whole Satir model of change and that kind of thing. And so I think maybe part of the equation of getting buy-in is really comprehending and understanding that you're not going to get buy-in right away. ⁓
Scott Dunn (20:56)
Hmm.
Brian Milner (20:57)
you know, there's going to be chaos and resistance. There's going to be a point where people are going to be resistant to it. And if you do the rest of it well, then that they'll turn that corner. But what makes them turn that corner is, is that they're connected to the purpose behind it. And so if you're, if you're going to try to implement this, if you're to try to do a change, and just expect it's gonna be, know, hunky dory from day one, you're fooling yourself. Humans don't take to change well. It's got an emotional aspect to it. I love the way David Hawks used to always say this. You know, I knew how to be a hero the old way, and I have no idea how to be a hero in this new thing. So I don't feel comfortable with this change because I don't know how to win.
Scott Dunn (21:41)
So true.
Brian Milner (21:47)
And I think that is a really accurate reflection of that emotional kind of impact of it. Everyone wants to do their job well and be seen as a smart person at work and everything else. And I knew how to do that before, but now I don't know how. And so I'm afraid I'm gonna look bad.
Scott Dunn (22:02)
Right? And I think that lack of awareness or knowledge is some of the things that we're asking them to do. Like you said, uncomfortable or new doesn't feel good. And we kind of think that, oh, if I don't feel good, this must be bad. It's just uncomfortable. But I think I love what you're saying. We can map it out and say, by the way, it's going to look like this as we go through that. And that hero part, a lot of our management, like 90 % of the management is going to be in that, you what we call expert or achiever. Like they're the smartest ones in the room, or they're ones that coordinate everything and they know who to talk to. you're trying to introduce something to someone who thinks they already know all the things. So how we're presenting that to them, including the fact that they're human too, right? They're gonna feel some things and maybe uncomfortable. It wouldn't hurt to explain a bit more, even if they're not gonna necessarily admit it, but like, hey, it's gonna feel different. The people might push back on this. So even when you're first beginning that, it reminded me of how I just knew I'd need to ask my boss like five times. Look, lots of people are asking him for stuff. They're partly just going by the simplest way of Who keeps coming to my office the most? And maybe on time five, like, wow, Scott, this sounds like a problem. Well, yeah, I've been here five times. Because they're kind of waiting, like, is it really a problem or do you just come in once or twice? So repeating that and then maybe framing it to say, and doing the change looks like this and that, giving them information so they don't have to admit that they don't know if they're priding themselves on knowing all the things. I really think that's a great addition to that. The Satir change model, knowing that it's going to get uncomfortable. I've seen execs jettison this just because people are bothered or upset or they're uncomfortable. So therefore this must be a bad idea. So I think we can do ourselves a favor by explaining a little bit like it's going to look like this moving forward as far as their support. Some people may not like it and here's why, but here's how I would answer those people. Like you're literally feeding them the responses. And I'll also do the get behind the expert and say, well, this is, this is what Harvard business review says, or this is what this expert says. You might be surprised because Again, back to them being experts, if you ask them what they think they know about Agile, I might have mentioned before, they score themselves on average about 8.5 out of 10. But their people would score them about 4.5 out of 10, right? It was what I've seen when I did the study, the surveys. So they think they know, so they're not gonna admit they don't know, but go ahead and give them the information they wish. If you know they don't know, I like what you're saying, kind of shrink the chain so they can understand, it's gonna look like this and feel like this. People might ask this way. But here's how I'd respond to them. know, remember this is where, you know, 90 % of the companies are doing X, Y, and Z. So they have backing. They can answer to the people. We kind of set them up for success. Otherwise that satiric change curve is going to hit them. They won't have answers. That feels really awkward. This must be a bad idea. And they're going to undo what you just asked for. Right. I've seen that happen. You just got approval and then a week or two later it got put on hold or undone.
Brian Milner (24:44)
Yeah, no, I agree. one of the areas, one of the other kind of things that I found in thinking about this in advance was a quote that was from the five dysfunctions of a team book that we all talk about quite a bit. But there's a quote from that that says, people don't weigh in, they won't buy in. And I love that. And I thought, you know, that really is a good point that there, it's not about
Scott Dunn (25:00)
Woo!
Brian Milner (25:08)
people need to feel like they're co-creating with you. And to do that, you need to be able to listen to them. If they don't feel like they have a voice, mean, put yourself in their shoes. If you felt like there was a big change happening and you had no say in it, that would feel pretty oppressive. But if they felt like they're building the change with you, then I think then that's what kind of can turn people around and say, no, I have a say in this, I'm a part of this. and I get to shape a little bit about what this is going to look like. They're going to shape it a lot. I mean, that's part of just the Azure way of working is that, hey, we're going to individualize this for this company, for this team. It has to fit here. And the more we can help people see, no, you're a co-creator in this. You're not just being told, but you're going to shape this with us.
Scott Dunn (25:54)
Right? Even with the leadership, I mean, it's easy. think everyone listening would agree. If you look at the common leaders, that's, even the, let's say director level and above personality types, right? For, for disc, it's going to be a high D for a strange pattern would be like command, um, computing values framework. They're going to be blue, get results, make it happen. But we need it to be, we need to be their decision for some of these folks. So when I would come to one of my bosses and say, I think we should do X every time he'd say like, yeah, let me think about. I'll get back to you. I kept thinking like, I don't understand because these are my people. I thought you trusted me. I realized, it has to be his decision. So part of what you're saying is invite him into the solution. So then I'd say, hey, we've got three options, good, better, best. What do you think we should do? Or I'd say, hey, I've done all the research, option A looks great, option B looks terrible. What do you think we should do? I mean, I try to simplify it. I tried to make it obvious, but I couldn't tell him I need to do X or we need this from you. It needed to be his input and to decide.
Brian Milner (26:44)
Right.
Scott Dunn (26:51)
once I framed it that way, he agreed every single time. I simply frame it, put it right in front of him so it's kind of an obvious decision, but I had to let him have that voice to decide. I'm really glad you brought that up. That one literally went from zero to 100 % if I changed my approach of how I had addressed it to let him be the one to decide and weigh in on that. Or even pitch it as a sales. Hey, I think it'd be great to move forward. What would that look like to you? Well, now he's talking about moving that change forward. without even realizing it, because you said to move forward, what would we need to do? And now he is co-creating, but it's already a yes, right? But by default, a little bit of sales, a little bit of sales effort there.
Brian Milner (27:24)
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a good example. And that's a good example, I think for like the scrum masters listening and other people out here that are, feel like, you know, I'm not the leader in the organization. I'm not way up here and I can't, you know, have my decisions trickle down to other people, but, you know, kind of the, influencing up kind of mentality there. Yeah. It might sound like a little bit of a trick, but you know, if you can help. the boss co-create with you, right? Here's the problem. I've done some research. Here's some solutions. How would this look for you? Or what do you think of these options? Which one do you think sounds best? If I'm a boss and someone comes to me and says that I've researched this, here's the solutions that are possible. Which one do you think sounds best? That's really a service to me because you've just done a lot of work for me and I know that I'm doing my job by making the decision, but you've presented it and now I don't have to do anything but make the call. Yeah.
Scott Dunn (28:24)
Yeah, yeah. Simplify the decision-making or frame the decision-making is, think we might actually be kind of, I don't want to say teasing. I just hear some feedback from people at times like, leadership's was like, bright, shiny squirrel, right? And they get frustrated. But in some ways I'm thinking, well, at least someone in the org is decisive. I'll take that. But we can help them leverage that decisive trait they have.
Brian Milner (28:43)
Yeah.
Scott Dunn (28:48)
But for the good, instead of these random crazy things, you know, when the leader's like, I love Agile, I can change my mind all the time. We can, we can, we can guide them to better decision-making too. I love the influence both up and down what you're saying the Scrum Master can do. I think we miss, that we all have that ability to try to influence decision-making and shape some of this. Maybe there's more agency than we realized, I think for some of these folks, Scrum Masters, product owners, cetera, that you might be surprised. Like run an experiment, try some of these things out that we're talking about and see for yourself. I mean, all these personality types are different and your orgs are different. I totally understand that. Do something, inspect and adapt and see what you get. might, cause once you strike gold, you're like, you know, you're set on getting influence and buy-in from folks. It's really powerful network. Cause we don't need to give you a title or change the org chart in order to have results happen with you involved if you're that kind of a person. And I think you can really write your ticket in your career if you're able to do that soft skill of influence and buy-in up and down. It's great.
Brian Milner (29:43)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, I hope that for at least the people that were in your class, this is is hit it right on the nail on the head for what it is they were they were thinking this would be about. But I think this is good. I think this is a good conversation and it's important, I think at all levels, because there's you know, this this affects us whether we're doing a massive transformation in an organization or
Scott Dunn (29:51)
Yeah.
Brian Milner (30:06)
We're just trying to influence up a tiny bit, you know, the food chain.
Scott Dunn (30:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I hope that for the folks who were in that class, you better let us know if that was it. If anyone else is interested in other things, absolutely. We love hearing what your what those topics would be and bring on the right people. I will say that Brian, you brought in so many different voices. It's really, really great. So again, influence us. You can practice what we're talking about by putting those ideas up there. Other folks that we'd love to hear, because I love the the slated speakers you brought in. Brian's been really awesome. Thanks for this opportunity.
Brian Milner (30:34)
Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for coming on again, Scott.

#152: The Five Pillars of Real Agile Improvement with Mike Cohn

Join Brian and Mike Cohn as they unpack the five essential pillars that take Agile from “just the motions” to meaningful, measurable impact. Plus, get a behind-the-scenes look at their revamped course built for real team transformation.
Overview
In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by longtime collaborator and Agile thought leader Mike Cohn for a deep dive into what really makes Agile stick.
They explore the five foundational pillars—mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team—and share stories of what happens when teams get them wrong (like obsessing over story point math or demoing a copyright update in a sprint review). Along the way, they introduce the newly available Working on a Scrum Team public course and explain why it’s designed for entire teams, not just isolated roles.
Whether you're new to Agile or knee-deep in transformation, this episode will help you rethink how to build an Agile approach that actually works.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Mike Cohn
#80: From Struggling to Success: Reviving Agile Teams with Mike Cohn
Scrum Team Roles and Responsibilities
Working on a Scrum Team Course
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in, Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm with you, as always, Brian Milner. And today, I have the one and only Mike Cohn back with us. Welcome in, Mike.
Mike (00:12)
Thanks, Brian. Good to be here.
Brian Milner (00:14)
Always happy to have Mike on the show and really appreciate Mike making time to come on. Wanted to have Mike on because there's some things Mike's been talking about recently that are really interesting and people have been asking a little bit about this and I thought maybe it'd be just a good opportunity to talk through some of the stuff that Mike's been writing about. I know you spent, Mike, a lot of time helping teams to not just do Agile but to really get solid results from it. to see impact from it. And I know the topic you've been talking about recently is sort of these five pillars of supporting real agile improvements, the mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team. So I thought maybe we could just dig in and drive through those and maybe learn a little bit about those as we go. Obviously also to talk a little bit about the exciting new course that's being launched here, the working on a Scrum team course, because I know that was originally just for private classes, right? And now it's being open to the public.
Mike (01:23)
Yeah, we've done working on a Scrum team as a private class for probably 20 plus years. It's been kind of our main offering to private clients. But we're hearing from a lot of people that they have one team and they can't really get a private class approved with the budget and such. So what we're doing is going ahead and making that course available as a public course. So two people from your company, five people from another company all in the same class the way we've done our certified courses for decades. And so we're going to start offering this as a public course. And the exciting thing there is that it's really meant to be a team-based class, where things like Scrum Master training, great class, but it's really meant for the Scrum Master, right? And working on a Scrum team is really designed, and you and I helped you and I design this course together, but it's designed to be something that is a whole team training, right? So good for anybody on a team.
Brian Milner (02:16)
Yeah, yeah, it's been really great teaching those in the private classes and I'm excited to think about the public being able to come in and take that now. Let's talk a little bit about these pillars and, I think people are gonna be really intrigued by the concept here. The first one is mindset, I think, and just wanna start there and say, what does it actually mean to... think Agile and what is the found, why is that kind of the foundation for successful transformations?
Mike (02:43)
Remember the kind of the early days of agile and there was a lot of conversation about could you be agile without understanding the principles, right? If you just did the practices, were you agile? Other people were saying, no, you have to start with the principles, right? And so do you start with principles? Do you start with practices? And I remember these early debates and they often devolved into a discussion of the karate kid movie, right? Remember that one, right? And, you know, can you just wax on?
Brian Milner (03:12)
Ha
Mike (03:12)
for long enough, just do the practices. And then all of a sudden, your karate instructor or your agile coach is, OK, you're agile. And it's like, wait, all I know how to do is wax a car, right? And so there were these discussions about practices versus principles. And I was kind of always on the side where you better understand the principles to do this. Just knowing the practices, waxing on all day, is kind of just going through the motions. And so you have to understand the principles. And the idea that I wanted was that if a team truly understood all of the principles underneath Agile, I don't just mean just the manifesto, but all the principles that are there from Lean, from Kanban, from everything, that if you really understood those, you'd kind of invent the practices, right? You do those and you go eventually to go, hey, we should probably meet every day. Or hey, if we tested first, that might be a really good thing.
Brian Milner (03:57)
Yeah.
Mike (04:05)
So you'd invent the practices if you really had that type of agile mindset. And so for me, when we're working with organizations to get them truly agile, and I don't mean like more agile than less agile, but agile in a way that's going to stick, you got to change mindsets, right? You've got to do more than just the wax on. So people have to get the mindset.
Brian Milner (04:27)
Yeah, I love that. I know that I've experienced some things in the course of working with people that's it's sort of like you, if you're not on the same page with the principles, then you start to talk through the practices and you run up against a problem. And really what you find out the core of it was, well, we weren't aligned on really the principle behind this. So why would I want the practices then, right? ⁓
Mike (04:49)
Yeah. Well, that's where you also end up then with a lot of team debates about things, right? Because you're arguing about the practice. if you'll say you and I are arguing about the benefit of some practice, if we agree on the principle, we might just have different views on it. But deep down, we'll probably agree on some practice, or we might find an alternative one. But if you don't agree on the principles, you end up with a lot more of these kind of annoying. mean, team debates are great. I mean, I love.
Brian Milner (04:54)
Yeah.
Mike (05:12)
you know, having a team debate, arguing stuff like that, but not about pointless things, right? And not without some sort of foundation. They just kind of get in the way. It's just frustrating for everybody.
Brian Milner (05:21)
Yeah. Well, I'm kind of curious, what kind of signs or signals do you think teams should look out for to kind of clue in and let them know that what might actually be going on here is more of a mindset issue?
Mike (05:36)
think sometimes it's when you hear the appeal to authority, right? Somebody says, you know, well, we got to do it this way because the scrum guide says, right? Or the one that annoys me is we have to do it this way because Mike Cohn says, ⁓ you know, that was like, no, I, somewhere else also said, think, right? Don't just, you know, don't just, you know, blindly do story points or something. Cause I say they're a good thing. I want you to think too.
Brian Milner (05:50)
You You
Mike (06:01)
And so I think that kind of appeal to authority when teams are debating things. It's where we also see teams who think they're agile because they do a set of practices. We use a particular agile tool, so we must be agile. We do daily meetings. We must be agile. And those are not the things that make you agile. Those are artifacts of being agile. If you're agile, you're going to meet a lot. You're not going meet a lot, but you're going to talk a lot. Um, and so those are the artifacts of behaving in an agile way. And so I want to understand why we're doing those things. So I look for those kind of appeals to authority. Um, you know, emphasis on that type of stuff in an argument talking about how this is the right way saying there's only one right way to do something.
Brian Milner (06:49)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. How does working on the Scrum team deal with this? How does that address it?
Mike (06:55)
Well, one of the things we do, it was actually one of my favorite exercises. We do this exercise at the start of the class where we ask people to kind of map out how the organization talks about certain adsel principles and then how does the organization behave. And so for example, if a company says, people are our greatest asset, and then they treat people like dirt, we've got this kind of problem between what we say and what we do. And so I like to kind of map this out. And so we do this with the principles in the Agile Manifesto. And once we map those out and we start to see things that we say we value, but we don't behave that way, really helps us understand if we've really embraced that mindset. Or are we just doing things because an Agile coach told us to, or a boss told us to, or we did it that way in our prior company. Those are all bad reasons to do something.
Brian Milner (07:48) Y
eah. So this is great. So I agree. The mindset's really foundational. And there is this symbiotic relationship between mindset and practices, which came first and which comes first, as we talked about. I know a lot of teams get stuck doing Agile, though, in really only name only. So when we talk about practices, what makes the difference between going through the motions?
Mike (08:00)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (08:11)
and actually doing things that work.
Mike (08:13)
Well, practices is kind of our second pillar, right? You have to have the mindset, right? But you also have to have the practices that come from having that mindset. so, again, I try to think of that team on a desert island, right? And they're isolated from the world. They've never talked to anybody, but they have an agile mindset. What practices are they going to invent, right? And I think those are kind of the core practices. We see a lot of problems with as an example, teams that misunderstand sprint planning. And I know when I first started teaching about sprint planning, I'd have a slide up there to have a picture of a sprint backlog. And the sprint backlog listed tasks like code this, design this, test this. And then there were estimates next to code this. It's going to take four hours testing. It's going to take three. And so we were able see all these numbers and think the point of a sprint planning was these numbers. And Even in the early days of this, I was always saying, no, it's not about those numbers. It's about deciding what product backlog items you can pick. if taking a, I don't even want to call it an estimate, but taking a wild guess about, it probably can take four hours to code. If that helps you decide how many backlog items you can commit to, great, put those numbers up there. But it was never about the numbers. And it's one of the most common problems that I see with teams in sprint planning is they get obsessed with How many hours did we bring in? How many points did we bring in? And I remember one team I worked with where we did sprint planning. Having those estimates were helpful for them on their sprint back. They were helping. And we finished the meeting. And we're using Google Sheets in a meeting to do this. We've got a row with the estimates in there. And as we start to wind down the meeting, I deleted that column that they'd spent so much time talking about. They're all kind of pissed off at me. Why'd you delete that? We spent all this time talking about it. I said, because we got the benefit, right? You got the benefit of those numbers. The benefit isn't a week from now remembering that you said five hours, because it's going to take what it takes. The benefit was the discussion that it led to of can we take more or are we already full? So I see teams get obsessed with that. This is one example, but that's one of the problems with sprint planning as a practice.
Brian Milner (10:25)
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. And that's one of the things I know I've talked about with people going through the course is sort of understanding the purpose behind the things. Just going back to, know, harkening back to what you said about, don't just do it because someone told you, you know, understand why the purpose behind it. And, know, otherwise we, I'm sure we've all had that experience before where someone just tells you to do something and says, you know, why? Cause I told you so, you know, that, that doesn't, that's not very convincing.
Mike (10:52)
Thanks, Mom.
Brian Milner (10:53)
Right, right, thanks mom. Yeah, not very convincing, but it's much more convincing when they can tell you, well, no, you do this because this is what we're trying to do. And I think you're right, that makes all the difference there. ⁓
Mike (11:05)
It just, don't know anybody that responds well to being told what to do, right? My instant reaction is no, right? mean, you it could be, you know, a really, you it could be a really good thing. Eat more vegetables, you spend more time outside. No, right? Don't tell me what to do. So.
Brian Milner (11:09)
Right. Right. Yeah. It's almost like our default response is no until you convince me. Are there other common practices? We talked about sprint planning. Are there other kind of practices you see teams struggle with?
Mike (11:28)
Yeah, yeah, for a lot of people. think a huge one is product backlog refinement. I don't know what a better word would be than refinement. refinement is about making the backlog better. It's not about making it perfect. And I see teams that get stuck on backlog refinement and feel like they have to resolve every open issue, that everything has to be tiny and answered and buttoned up before we can start a sprint. And that's not the case. For me, the goal in refinement is to make sure things are small enough and sufficiently well understood. I don't want to bring in a backlog that's bigger than my velocity. If our velocity is 25, I don't want bring in a 50-point story. how about the problems of a 50-point story anyway? But I don't want to bring in some massive epic like that into a sprint. And so refinement is about making it small, making sure it's sufficiently well understood. Sufficiently well understood, not perfectly. And so
Brian Milner (12:18)
Yeah.
Mike (12:28)
The problem is these teams, and I know you've seen this, but teams who get in there, want to resolve every open issue. It's like, no, we can resolve that during the sprint. If we think about the goal and planning to make sure we know what to bring into the sprint, not too much, not too little, we're fine just enough that you're at that point. Is the button blue or red? Who cares? If it's a log in story, we're going to lock people out after some number of failed attempts. Who cares how many? Figure that out during the sprint. If it's five or three or eight, who cares? Figure that out later. So I think refinements won. Another big one would be reviews, ⁓ where sometimes teams demo too much in a sprint review. And they feel like they have to justify their existence, show everything you did during the sprint. And the most egregious example of that was this was a handful of years ago. But I literally remember a team showing
Brian Milner (12:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike (13:18)
how they had updated the copyright notice on the footer of the web page, know, copyright, you know, whatever year our company, right? And it's like, my God, you didn't need to show that to stakeholders, right? We all either know there's a copyright notice on the bottom of the web page or we've seen one before. I don't need you to bring it up and scroll down to it. Now only took 15 seconds of the meeting, but that was 15 seconds of people's lives. They were never going to get back. you know, show stuff that you need feedback on, right? If you'd...
Brian Milner (13:41)
Right.
Mike (13:45)
You fixed a bug and you fixed it only way it could be fixed. Mention it perhaps, but you don't need to show it, right?
Brian Milner (13:51)
Yeah, yeah, know teams I've been on often it's just it's suffice it to have a list sometimes and just say here's a list of things if you want to know more about these come talk to us but we're move on to the stuff you care about.
Mike (14:02)
Yeah, I always have like a will show, will not show list. you know, I often, if I'm writing the meetup present, that'll put that up on Zoom or, you know, show it on a screen if we're in person. And often somebody wants to see something that's on the will not show list. Or they just want me to describe what bug was that again? What was that? You know, and I'll explain it really quickly. But if nobody wants to see it, don't bother showing it. So.
Brian Milner (14:26)
Yeah, I know we talk about these scrum practices quite a bit in the working on the scrum team class, but if someone signed up to take this class, what can they expect to hear or what can they expect to learn about these practices in the course?
Mike (14:39)
Well, I think one of the things that you and I did together in creating the newest version of the course was to look at what do you actually need to practice doing, and it's feasible to practice doing in a classroom setting, versus what should you just kind of talk through. And not everything needs to be practiced to get the hang of it, right? Everybody in the world has taken something big and split it up into smaller things before, right? I need to make. spaghetti dinner tonight. What do need to buy? Right? OK. Well, that's that's that's test decomposition by noodles, by sauce, by tomatoes. Let's make it from scratch. Right. By some garlic. Right. So everybody in the world has done decomposition. We've broken a big thing into small things. And I remember, you know, iterating over I'm still on sprint planning, I guess. But I remember iterating over exercises in sprint planning and in courses over the decades by now. And I would have one where you're planning a party for your kid, break it down into tasks. It's like, nobody learns anything from this. And so that's one where I'd rather say, OK, this problem occurs in sprint planning. How could you solve it? Other things like, let's say, splitting user stories or splitting job stories, that's a skill worth practicing together, getting feedback on. And so those type of things we try to practice in the course. other things we just talk about. mean, I'm curious on your thoughts on that. What do you think about some things being worth practicing, some things worth being better talked about?
Brian Milner (16:01)
Yeah, I agree. I agree fully. it's, it's, you know, there's some things, it's kind of like what you said before, there's some things that's not worth spending the time on, and it's better to just have a discussion and move on.
Mike (16:13)
Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's one of the things we always talked about. We always talked about return on investment of the exercise. What's the return on the exercise? And if you're going to have a one hour exercise, cool. One hour exercise. But it better have a pretty healthy return because that's a lot of time in class. And so what's the return on exercise? Is this worth a practice? Is it worth just a discussion? And if we can discuss two hard problems and give people advice on two common problems, they're probably going to face.
Brian Milner (16:21)
Yeah.
Mike (16:41)
Might be better than spending 20 minutes practicing something that they've probably done before.
Brian Milner (16:45)
Yeah, I completely agree. Let's move to the third pillar then, because I know this is a big one, just thinking and talking about the roles. And just as far as communication issues are concerned, even outside of Scrum, I know that's part of the big problem with teams and organizations just not being clearly defined about who does what and who's responsible for each thing. So those misunderstandings are really common failure points. ⁓
Mike (17:09)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (17:10)
How do you see teams getting that wrong and how's that derailing a Scrum team?
Mike (17:15)
Well, think we see it all the time on Scrum teams between Scrum Master and Product Owner and even the development team, right? Who does what? I was responding to some comments on LinkedIn this morning on some post I'd made last week and somebody had some comments. And it had to do with whether the Scrum Master or Product Owner does something. And it was interesting because in the comments on that post, I... I don't remember which one it was, but I shared a certain perspective. I feel pretty strongly that I have it right. I mean, I this is how we do it. But there were other people saying the opposite, right? And so, you know, these are people that are probably fairly experienced with Scrum, if they're following me on LinkedIn and feel comfortable commenting on a post, probably feel comfortable with it. And so there's a lot of confusion about what role does what thing. And I don't think this is something where the Scrum guy is going to have the answers for you. I think it's, I mean, you can look at the Scrum guy, oh, this. Here's my starting point answer, but we always want to play to people's strengths, right? And if you've got a scrum master who's got a lot of skill in one area, maybe they shift a little work from the PO to themselves, right? With the PO's permission, right? And the opposite, right? Between maybe PO and team. So it's fine to have default starting positions on who does what, but you always want to play to people's strengths. So I think PO scrum master, I think we see it with project managers and scrum masters, roll confusion on those type of roles as well.
Brian Milner (18:38)
Yeah, completely agree. A lot of those roles that are not named Scrum team roles and how they interact with the team, that's often a source of confusion as well. What are maybe some signs or symptoms that teams might be having confusion or problems in this area that maybe they don't even recognize or realize they're having an issue with roles?
Mike (18:59)
Any sort of conflicts, right? You know, you and I arguing over which one of us should do something. The other one would be kind of the opposite, which would be like a dropped ball. I was watching some YouTube video. I love baseball. I was watching some YouTube video the other day of like missed catches or something like that. And some team hit a baseball way up in the air and it was landing near three players, right? Three players are all looking at it.
Brian Milner (19:12)
You
Mike (19:23)
One guy waves the other two off, he's going to catch the ball and he must have been blinded by the sun because he's like six feet from the ball when it lands on the ground, right? And, you know, if we have a responsibility to catch the ball, run this meeting, right, right the backlog, the kids dropped, right? And so I think either arguing over who does something, two of us trying to do the same thing or neither of us doing it. I don't mean trying to get out of the work, right? All three players have been happy to catch the ball, but I think you've got it. You think I've got it, right? Those type of things are pretty good signs. think getting clarity around these roles can really optimize how a team works. And I think a really key thing here is that it changes over time. So I'll go back to my example of maybe the Scrubmaster has some skills that can help the product owner early on. Because maybe the product owner is new to the company. The product owner doesn't know the product as well. So they might rely on the Scrubmaster for guidance on things. Well, a year from now, we might shift responsibilities a little bit because now the PO is the expert on all things related to the product. So it's not like we want to establish clarity on roles one time and leave it forever. It's going to change. We get a new tester on the team, things might change. Product owner moves. It's going to change again. So we need to realize these responsibilities are dynamic.
Brian Milner (20:39)
Yeah, that's a great point. Your point about baseball just made me think about how, when you watch any youth sport in the world, when you go watch your kids play a sport, what's the one thing you always hear people scream from the sideline? Talk to each other. Call the ball. Well, that too. That too. Ump your blind. Those kinds of things. Well, let's talk a little bit about
Mike (20:52)
I thought you were going say, put my kid in.
Brian Milner (21:00)
I know this course addresses the roles and how would you say this course really helps address that issue of role confusion?
Mike (21:07)
think a big part of it is that we designed it to be for everybody on the team, right? Suppose you send a scrum master to a class, and it's a great class. Scrum master is going to back to the certain set of impressions about their role. Product owner goes to an equally good class about the product. They might have different impressions. Even if they took the course from the same instructor, they're hearing it a little differently. They're hearing it through their filters, right? And so when they're in a course together, there's more opportunities to clarify their understanding about those things, especially in the classes designed as we did with this one to bring out some of those differences. So I think the course helps with that. we've also designed it to mention the rules we haven't talked about, like managers and things like that.
Brian Milner (21:53)
Yeah, yeah, I think those are so important. And there's a lot of great discussions that come out when we have those topics. ⁓ Let's talk about the fourth pillar then, teamwork, because this, I think, builds really well on what we just talked about. And the idea that there's actually, Scrum is a team sport. ⁓ So beyond just normal human personality conflict type issues, what do you see that gets in the way of teams actually
Mike (21:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (22:18)
working as a team.
Mike (22:19)
think ego is probably one, right? I can do everything better, just leave me alone. There's an old book that says basically, beware of a lone developer in a room, right? You know, it was referring to the developer who wants to close their door and say, I'll it done in a month, trust me, right? And one of the companies I worked with, and this one's going back like 15 years ago, but it was a really good story.
Brian Milner (22:36)
Yeah.
Mike (22:43)
is they would literally grab one unit of work. Each person on the team would grab a unit of work and take anywhere from three to 12 months to do the thing. So they were big things, but the person would do everything on it. They'd coded, tested everything. And the organization was putting out very little because of this. When they moved to Scrum in the first year, by their estimate, they said they delivered 540 % more work. over five times the amount of new features delivered. And that was through the collaboration, through the short iterations, those type of things. But it was about getting people to collaborate more. So I think there's huge opportunities to do that. One of the problems I see is when we don't overlap work. If we think about that organization I just described, you grab your thing, you're done in six months. I grab mine, I'm done in seven months. If we'd work together on those things, what's not make us any faster? No faster. But you and I could have worked on your one thing and been done in three months. OK, we're delivering value in three months, right? And so one of the things I look for a lot is how much teams are overlapping work, right? And if we're not overlapping work, there's huge opportunities to improve at that. I'll a little example of this. One of my favorite restaurants is, I don't know, barely call it a restaurant. It's a fast food deli. It's called Jimmy John's. Have you been to Jimmy John's, Yeah. Yeah, there's one near my house where I can go there and the wine will be out the door. Right. And you know, normally you see a wine out the door and it's like, crap, I'm going somewhere else. Right. These guys are so fast. They're so fast. When I get to the front, I place my order. I play this little game of can I fill up my cup? You know, I get an iced tea and they give me an empty cup and can I go fill up ice and put the tea in before they hand me my sandwich? And it's about 50-50. Right. It doesn't take long to fill up your iced tea. But the way they do that is the overlap work. As soon as I order my Italian club sandwich, somebody's already got the bread open, somebody's got a slab of meat they're ready to drop on there, somebody else has their hands over the vegetables and they're dropping the vegetables on there, and then a fourth person wraps it up. And so like four or five people touch my sandwich. Hopefully their hands are clean, but four or five people touch my sandwich as opposed to like most delis where I go and it's like you watch one person plod along making the sandwich, right? Overlap work is huge.
Brian Milner (25:07)
Yeah. Yeah, this episode sponsored by, no, just kidding. Use code Mike Cohn when you go to, no, just kidding. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with Jimmy John's. Probably too familiar. ⁓ Yes, yeah, no, that's, I think that's part of their shtick is that they're, you know, they're known for being fast. So yeah.
Mike (25:10)
You Is yours just as fast? Yeah. Yeah. They call it Freaky Fast. They actually have a competition. I've seen YouTube videos of this where they get like the best teams at various restaurants race, right? And so they have like the Jimmy John sandwich making Olympics or something, but it's a skill.
Brian Milner (25:36)
wow, wow, yeah. You should pair that up with the hot dog eating challenge in some way and see if we could have a team sport going there. ⁓
Mike (25:48)
Well, that's a good point because think about the hot dog eating. That's one guy, right? That's Joey Chesnett shoving hot dogs down. The Jimmy Johns is a team. They get the best crew at a restaurant and it's a team, right? How fast can the team go? Not how fast can one guy make a sandwich, right?
Brian Milner (25:51)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So what are some tips? What are some ways that you can really unite a team, especially those new teams? Because that's the fascination point for me is, how do you take this group of humans that really don't know each other and haven't worked together in the past and unite them together and have them gel as a team? How do you do that?
Mike (26:21)
I'll give you a couple. One, I think having really crisp sprint goals helps. So we all know exactly what we're trying to get done in the sprint. We don't lose sight of that because sometimes in the middle of a sprint, you lose sight of it. And you get myopic and you just focus on a list of tasks. And I'm going to say that it's probably similar to the team doing sprint planning and just getting them assessed with the numbers. It's not about the numbers. It's not about the tasks. It's about the backlog items that lead to some goal. So crisp sprint goals help. That's a hard phrase. Crisp Sprinkles helps. The other one I'd say is having a shared vision about where you're headed over a little bit longer term. Probably the biggest change to the Scrum Guide ever that I've liked is the inclusion of a product goal. And that was something I'd been talking about forever. mean, literally since I started doing Scrum was that sprinkles are great, but they're pretty short, right? You want to have something bigger.
Brian Milner (26:52)
It is.
Mike (27:14)
And so I like having product goals that are a few months out there. And one of the things I like doing for product goals is have teams do something like write a press release that describes their goal or create a vision in some way, write a review that you want to see come out on the App Store, Play Store, and a magazine. And one of my clients made software and they were reviewed by a major magazine and they were given an editor's choice runner up award. And they actually estimated that being runners up for that was probably worth about $10 million. First place, first time was worth about $10 million a year to them. And so they decided to get serious about this and they wrote a review. Their scrum master, she was actually combo scrum master product owner, Erin. She had the team write a review and she said, let's go earn this review. And I literally remember the email I got from her three months later. It was because it was Halloween night. I just like, you know, brought in the candy from outdoors. We're done trick or treating. And I checked my email. I a three word email from her from Erin. said we did it. And the magazine had let her know, hey, we're reviewing you. be out on, you know, like Tuesday's edition. And the review had quotes in there that were from their vision review, right? The things that they had wanted to achieve.
Brian Milner (28:22)
Ha ha.
Mike (28:35)
And that team had just really jelled around that and just became so much more productive and collaborated so much better because of that shared vision.
Brian Milner (28:43)
Yeah, that's amazing. getting back to the course then, I know in the course we're trying to kind of some of those collaboration muscles. What are some of the ways that the course helps to build that?
Mike (28:56)
think one of the key things that we're doing, and I'm excited about this, is that we're, you know, we of course use Zoom breakout rooms, right? You you go talk about this, we'll see you in eight minutes or something like that. And for this course, we're doing something where a group of three or more, when they register, can have a private breakout room. And this to me is exciting because people get the benefit of having a private breakout room. They can have sensitive discussions if they want. They can talk very specifically about. you know, what do we do about our jerk product owner? mean, whatever it is, right? You know, they can talk about their specific issues, yet have the context of a broader class. Because I think in one of the benefits of any public class is hearing how other teams are doing things. And sometimes that's because you get a good advice, you know, how did you solve that problem? We have that problem. Other times, it's just feeling that you're not alone in the world. they've got that problem too, right? And they don't have any solution for me, but I know I'm not alone in the world with this. And so I like these private breakout rooms for three or more. I think it's a novel thing we're doing with this class. And it's with the intent of combining the best of both worlds of private and public training for this. I'd the other thing is probably consistency, having everybody on the team hear the same message, having those discussions with an experienced instructor like you or me in the room to provide guidance when they have questions. know, go back to the role clarity, right? You know, they can talk about it and they're there. Then they're back in the main room with you or me and we can kind of answer questions. So I think that consistency will be huge as well.
Brian Milner (30:25)
Yeah, yeah, I love that idea of the private private breakout rooms that that's that's gonna be huge for a lot of people I know. ⁓
Mike (30:31)
I'm excited to try it with this. This will be the first classes we do that for. I'm excited about it.
Brian Milner (30:36)
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's bring it home then and talk about the fifth pillar because the fifth pillar is really interesting as well. It talks about support beyond the team and teams can only do so much. Every team struggles when they're not supported well. And there's lots of studies that show leadership support is one of the biggest hurdles or obstacles to the adoption.
Mike (30:46)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Milner (30:59)
What does that support look like from outside the team and how can a team influence that?
Mike (31:06)
Yeah, if you're trying to be agile and your HR group has quarterly reviews of personnel that are all based on individual performance and has nothing to do about teamwork in there, it's going to be hard to focus on collaboration. So we have to kind of fix these issues. I think what we have to do here is to have team members educate those outside the organization. And we have information that we share about, you here's how to talk to a boss that's maybe mandating deadlines, things like that. And so we try to coach people through having some of those challenging conversations. And one of things I want teams to do is kind of become an example of what good agile looks like. And if you have a team that's excelling with agile and they're doing it from a kind of principles first, that mindset first approach. You're going to see other groups look at that and let's say the marketing group. They're going to look at that go, hey, that's an interesting way to work. I wonder how we could do that, right? And it's going look different for a marketing group than a tech team. the mindset is going to be the same. Principles will still be the same. And so when we get teams to do really well with this, other parts of the organization start to get interested. And then they stop being as much in our way.
Brian Milner (32:20)
Yeah. I know one of the most important aspects here and that we talk about is, is that you don't need to, to wait, right? If you're the team level, you don't have to just sit around and wait for the organization to make changes. you, you have opportunities to make changes as well. So how does that happen? How's the team change, you know, bring about those changes that, improve the agile process, the results.
Mike (32:42)
I think that's by being the example so that people see it. I think it's by having those conversations. You know, one of the things that we'll get is, you know, it's so common is the product owner that wants to change their mind all the time. I was reading something, I guess this is in our Agile mentors community, I think is where it was, but it was about the, you know, the product owner who said his favorite thing about Agile is that he can reprioritize every week. ⁓ And it's like, you can, you know.
Brian Milner (33:05)
Hmm. Yeah
Mike (33:10)
I'm not sure it's good. And I think about that, a team gets momentum, right? And you're working on a certain feature. Next sprint, it would be nice to work in that same area of this system, right? Your head's there. Just kind of keep going a little bit. And I've often described this as like, let's say you're working on three backlog items that are in a certain area of this system. Let's make it concrete. Let's say it's the spell checker in Microsoft Office, right? And you do three backlog items related to the spell checker this sprint. Next sprint, maybe your top priority is not more spell checker stuff, but maybe items, I don't know, 25, 26, and 27 on the backlog are still in the spell checker. You know what? It might be better to do those. There are probably two or three sprints away. Let's bring them into this sprint. Just get them done while my head's into spell checking. And so getting product owners or stakeholders to stop doing that, one of the ways that I like to talk about doing that is using an example of ordering a meal at a restaurant. I can order, let's say, the chicken entree. And then as the waiter is taking the orders around the table, I change from chicken, no, bring me the fish. Not a big deal. The waiter is going to cross off chicken and write down fish. If the waiter goes away, brings me back my salad, and I change my mind then, I say, hey, bring me the fish. Might not be a big deal. It's going to be a big deal if I've already taken three bites of the chicken. right? Or if he brings me the chicken. So yeah, we can change our mind, but there's a cost, right? And we want to educate stakeholders about that cost. They don't overdo it.
Brian Milner (34:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of the leaders and the organization, managers, leaders, do you think this course is appropriate for managers and leaders to attend as well? you feel like they might need to in order to really have this be an impact?
Mike (34:55)
Yeah, that's a good question. Is it appropriate? Yeah, I think it's appropriate. When we do this privately, we've had plenty of leaders and managers attend. I think it's great. I don't think that's required because they're not on the Scrum team. You said the name of the course is working on a Scrum team. And so they're not on the Scrum team. They benefit by knowing more how their Scrum team works. But I think what we found is that having just a key subset of people who hear the same message work through the training together, and then go back to the organization. That's enough to bring the passion, conviction, and skills that we want. So we don't truly need leaders. They're great. I would never talk a leader out of going, but I wouldn't. If I were a team and I could take the class this month or with my leader next month, I would just get the class done, right? And educate the leader afterwards.
Brian Milner (35:41)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good plan. All right, well then we've made our way through the five pillars and for people who have come this far with us and are at this point, if they're listening and they're recognizing some of these problems we've been talking about, what would you recommend to them as next steps here?
Mike (35:49)
if Well, take a look at our website. If you go to mountaingoatsoftware.com. And then I think there's a courses link on the top. You can go up there and find the link to this course. It's an exciting one that we're doing. I've literally been teaching this, I think the first time I taught a class called Working on a Scrum Team was 2003 or 2004. it's a time tested course. You and I kind of redesigned it a couple of months ago to make it appropriate for public. or little better just in general and more appropriate for public. But it's a time-tested course that's now designed to be available for public settings instead of, you know, have to have 25 people or something.
Brian Milner (36:36)
Yeah, yeah, that's really exciting. I can't wait to see kind of how people are in, you know, react and interact in the course to some of these concepts and ideas. And we'll, we'll of course link to all these things that we've talked about in our show notes and make it easy for everyone to find the course listing and, and, you know, where the dates and everything that we're going to offer them. So make sure to check that out. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. This has been really enlightening and I appreciate you making time for it.
Mike (37:01)
Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. Always a pleasure.

Pressing Pause: A Summer Break and What’s Coming Next

We’re taking our own advice and hitting pause to recharge this July. While we’re off the mic, revisit past episodes packed with timeless insights and conversations you may have missed.
Overview
This week, we're pressing pause to model the sustainable pace we teach. Brian shares a quick update about our summer break, what’s ahead in August, and how you can make the most of the podcast archive while we’re away.
Whether you’re poolside or simply stepping back from the daily sprint, we hope you’ll join us in creating a little breathing room and we can’t wait to be back with a fresh season soon.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Subscribe & Listen to Previous Episodes of the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00) Hey there Agile Mentors, this is Brian Milner and I'm just gonna take a moment of your time today because we're actually going to be practicing what we teach here at Agile Mentors and we're gonna be working at a sustainable pace. So for us that means we're gonna take a few weeks off. It's summer and I know many of you are going to be taking time off with your families and we're gonna be doing the same thing.
So we won't be around for the next month. We're gonna be out of here for July, but already have some plans for when we come back in August. So stay tuned when we come back in August, we've got a new season of shows that will begin there in August that I think you'll really enjoy.
While we're off, might I suggest you go back through our archive. Look at some of the previous podcast episodes we've done. There's quite a few now. And maybe you've missed some of the episodes from the past. Go back and find some of our great guests that we've had over the years when we've been doing this. I think you'll find some really great guests and some really interesting topics. So fill your diet of Agile Mentors with that while we're at taking a little bit of a break here at Agile Mentors.
I hope you're having a great summer and we look forward to seeing all of you back here in August. Take care.

#151: What AI Is Really Delivering (and What It’s Not) with Evan Leybourn & Christopher Morales

Is AI underdelivering? Or are we asking the wrong questions? This episode breaks down what actually leads to business ROI with AI (and no, it’s not more automation).
Overview
What if AI isn’t the silver bullet—yet—but the bottleneck is human, not technical?
In this episode, Brian Milner chats with Evan Leybourn and Christopher Morales of the Business Agility Institute about their latest research on how organizations are really using AI, what’s working (and what’s wildly overhyped), and why your success might hinge more on your culture than your code.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Evan Leybourn
Christopher Morales
Business Agility Institute
From Constraints to Capabilities Report
Delphi Method
#93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn
#82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton
#117: How AI and Automation Are Redefining Success for Developers with Lance Dacy
AI Practice Prompts For Scrum Masters
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of Directing the Agile Organization and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value. Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy.
Christopher Morales is a seasoned digital strategist and agile leader with over 20 years of experience guiding organizations like ESPN, IBM, and the Business Agility Institute. As founder of Electrick Media, he helps U.S. and European businesses harness AI to make smarter, more sustainable decisions in a rapidly changing world.

#150: What “1 Billion” Scrum Classes Taught Us About Team Culture (and Captain America) with Cort Sharp & Laura Kendrick

Laura Kendrick and Cort Sharp hijack the mic to share what it’s really like behind the scenes at Mountain Goat. From Zoom bloopers to unexpected team bonding, they unpack how a fully remote team built a thriving, human-centered workplace.
Overview
In this special takeover episode, Laura Kendrick and Cort Sharp pull back the curtain on what goes into running hundreds of Scrum and Product Owner classes virtually—and why Mountain Goat's remote team still feels so close-knit.
With stories of early tech headaches, Slack banter, hilarious costume moments, and the quiet rituals that keep the team connected, they explore how remote work can actually foster strong relationships and top-tier collaboration. If you’ve ever wondered how to make a distributed team work (or just want a peek at some Zoom-era growing pains), this one’s for you.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Laura Kendrick
Cort Sharp
#61: The Complex Factors in The Office Vs. Remote Debate with Scott Dunn
#147: The Power of Quiet Influence with Casey Sinnema
Run a Daily Scrum Your Team Will Love
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years.
Laura Kendrick is the producer of the Agile Mentors Podcast and a seasoned Scrum Master who keeps virtual classes running smoothly. Outside the podcast, she helps clients apply Scrum techniques to their marketing and business strategy, bringing structure and momentum to big, creative ideas.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. As you may have noticed, I am not Brian Milner. I am Laura Kendrick, and this is Cort Sharp. And if you have taken a class with us at Mountain Goat in the last five years, there is a good chance that you have met one or actually both of us.
Cort Sharp (00:19)
I think it's like 90 % chance, 95 % honestly. We've been in so many of these classes.
Laura Kendrick (00:26)
Definitely, and oftentimes together too with one of us TAing, one of us producing, sometimes one of us teaching court.
Cort Sharp (00:33)
once in a while, once in a while. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (00:37)
So we thought we would come on over here and hijack the podcast to share a little bit about some of the insights that we have gained from doing about a billion, maybe a little exaggeration.
Cort Sharp (00:49)
Roughly. Roughly. We've done roughly a billion classes with Mountain Goat. Yes.
Laura Kendrick (00:56)
We have seen a lot in the certifying of Scrum Masters and product owners and advanced product owners and Scrum Masters and all of the evolution of the classes that we have done. We actually hold quite a bit of insight into what is happening in this world. And so we thought we would come in, steal the podcast, and share a little bit of what we have seen, learned, observed, and really just kind of Honestly, some of the laughs and fun that we've had along the way.
Cort Sharp (01:25)
Also, I think, I don't know, just your intro right there is talking about, hey, we've seen the evolution of these classes. That just got my brain going of like, remember the first class that we did? Way like 2020. I mean, I was in my parents' basement with really terrible internet. It was a struggle.
Laura Kendrick (01:40)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (01:49)
But we were working on like Miro boards or mural. One of the two, forget which, which tool it was, but that was, yeah, that was before team home. And then we got to see the first version of team home. We helped do a little testing with it. And then we've seen it grow all the way into this awesome tool that we have nowadays. And I don't know, just, just to me, I think it's cool to see how we've been iterating and be part of that process of the iteration process, um, to develop these classes and these courses into.
Laura Kendrick (01:52)
Mm-hmm. Mural. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Cort Sharp (02:20)
the truly awesomeness that they are today. Personally, I'd rather take a virtual class than an in-person class with Mountain Goat at this point.
Laura Kendrick (02:27)
It's funny that you say that because I notice actually the iteration of the experience like outside of the tech piece because you know, that's where my brain goes. Here's the difference between court and I. I'm noticing the interactions. But I've noticed, mean how people are interacting a little bit differently in the online space, how even our team interacts, like all of those things has become so much more sophisticated and amazing and
Cort Sharp (02:39)
Yeah, just a bit.
Laura Kendrick (02:54)
I mean, honestly, we sometimes talk on our team between like the producing and TA team where like I've referred to it as a perfect game if we don't need anything from the outside team, which occasionally we need a lot of support from the outside team, but we've we've got this down at this point. And it is it's become those first classes. I remember them being super stressful, like, my gosh, the breakout rooms and all the things and just being like, I mean, you couldn't do.
Cort Sharp (03:17)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (03:21)
It was almost like learning how to drive where you felt like if you turned the radio knob up, you might actually turn the whole car. And it was like, so much anxiety.
Cort Sharp (03:31)
I mean, but we just didn't know Zoom then. Zoom didn't even know itself then, right? What Zoom is, ⁓ for those of you who don't know, we host all of our virtual classes on Zoom. And learning that platform, like I'd used it once maybe for some just, yeah, here's Zoom exists in one of my college classes. That was about it. But yeah, totally. was like, man, what does this button do? Hopefully it doesn't end the meeting and kick everyone out.
Laura Kendrick (03:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah, no kidding. But you know what's really interesting too, though, is that it's been over five years now for both of us being part of the Mountain Goat team. And we all work remotely. And other than you and Mike for a little while being right down the road from each other, none of us had any actual interpersonal interaction with each other outside of Zoom email and Slack and the occasional, know, fretted text message of like, are you late? Where are you?
Cort Sharp (03:58)
Absolutely, yeah, totally. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (04:26)
But other than that it like we truly were of and still are a fully remote team and the crazy thing about it is we have at this point once gotten together as a full team in person and it was such an interesting experience being having been fully remote and then being in person and in particular the team that is live on the classes
Cort Sharp (04:39)
Yep. Yep.
Laura Kendrick (04:51)
It was a very different interaction because we have this time built into our classes where the team gets on the Zoom call 30 minutes earlier than the students do. And we get this time to just honestly have like water cooler chat and like friend chat or occasionally see Mike get on and you can't hear him, but you can see that he is quite angry at his very elaborate tech system that is not working correctly.
Cort Sharp (05:14)
you That does happen. Yes, it does. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (05:21)
these moments, I feel like they really bonded us together. Because when we got together in person, it was old friends. wasn't even fast friends. It was old friends. And the banter even that goes on in Slack is fun and engaging and not rigid and confining.
Cort Sharp (05:31)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. I mean, I'm just thinking back to like the first time because that was the first time I met you in person. aside from being like, wow, she's a lot shorter than I thought she would be.
Laura Kendrick (05:47)
Mm-hmm. shorter. By the way, court is like 6-4.
Cort Sharp (05:55)
Yeah, yeah. Not that you're short. But I've just always ever seen like, the profile like the profile picture. That's all that it's really ever been. So I'm like, yeah, you're like, what I would consider normal height, which you totally are. But in my mind, I was like, yeah, it's weird seeing, you know, your legs. That's funny. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (06:14)
We digress.
Cort Sharp (06:15)
But aside from that, was like we've known each other for three, four, four years because we've had that time to get to know each other. We've had that time to talk about just life events, what's going on, where we live, what's happening, what the deal is going on with life. Because we've been very intentional about having that time with that. The 30 minutes before each class were originally very much so used to take care of any tech problems. As the years have gone by, we've for the most part figured out the tech problems. Sometimes, you know, we'll change something out.
Laura Kendrick (06:48)
Except, hold on, except last week in Lance's class, we were talking about his dog and suddenly it looked as though Lance in his entire room did a cartwheel because the camera just fell. This is not a small camera.
Cort Sharp (07:02)
It said, nope, I'm out. ⁓ man.
Laura Kendrick (07:06)
So we still occasionally have the tech problem.
Cort Sharp (07:09)
Yes we do, yes we do. That's why we still do the 30 vimits.
Laura Kendrick (07:14)
The crazy thing about that is that when we landed at this in-person meeting, there were members of the team that at that time, and I in particular had never had any interaction with. so like other than the odd email or Slack message, so it was like really knew their name, but didn't really work with them up until that moment. And it was really interesting because at one point, the way that the leadership team had mentioned of like, well, if you need somebody to step in and talk to Mike for you, if you're not comfortable. And I remember looking at court and being like, Mike's the one I'm most comfortable with in this room because of that 30 minutes. I feel like I know Mike. I feel like we have an actual interpersonal relationship where I have no problem speaking up and saying the things that I need to. And that has made like those little water cooler times, those little
Cort Sharp (07:54)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (08:06)
bantery questions, them asking about my kids or hobbies or whatever. And just knowing those things made a huge difference in our team functioning. The communication across time zones was so much better and easier and safer.
Cort Sharp (08:24)
Absolutely. We were talking a little bit before we were recording about just people who want pure in-person no matter what. I think at this point, I will always push back on that and say, you might not get that quote unquote collaboration time that's naturally built in, but if you're intentional about it and you provide the space and provide the resources,
Laura Kendrick (08:32)
Hmm.
Cort Sharp (08:50)
And also, kind of push people along, have some, I don't know, working agreements or something of, hey, our cameras are on whenever we're talking with each other, unless something like drastic is going on or something's happening, right? Which I think we're going to get into in a little bit, but it's massive. It's crazy.
Laura Kendrick (09:03)
That's huge. Yeah, I mean, it is. I think we can definitely speak to that in our own experience because we've had, of course, there are moments where people don't have cameras. There are moments where people have bad connections and we'll encourage them in class, like turn off your camera, save your bandwidth. But there are also moments where we are doing private classes for companies. In particular, we've done some with companies that work with like Department of Defense. So there's like real security. issues there and so they don't turn their cameras on. Their cameras are totally disabled on their computers. And it is, I have to say those classes are some of the most like energy draining classes I'm ever present in because I'll be there with the trainer and I feel like I have to give all this emotional feedback because when you are talking to a black screen, that's, it's really hard to just.
Cort Sharp (09:47)
Hmm.
Laura Kendrick (09:58)
survive that because you're not getting any feedback from anyone. So you don't know what's happening and you're constantly questioning and the kind of banter in your own mind is like, God, is it landing? Is it not? And you're just not getting any of that physical feedback. So I feel like when I'm on a class with a trainer like that, I feel like I have to be like, that's funny. I'm like, yeah, good point.
Cort Sharp (10:19)
Yeah, you're kidding.
Laura Kendrick (10:21)
I'm tired
Cort Sharp (10:22)
You No, I get that. And I've had some pretty similar experiences too. I might not be as in tune with the emotional side as stated earlier. So I might not help the trainers out nearly as much as I probably should. But I do think cameras on just can make all the difference. And again, situations where it's just not possible. Absolutely understand that. One of our trainers, Lance, he
Laura Kendrick (10:39)
Mm-hmm.
Cort Sharp (10:47)
He always likes to throw out the phrase, look, let's approach everything with grace, patience, and mercy. So I like, which I really appreciate, and I like that he throws that out there. But I think that's a good thing to keep in mind of like, know, even though you have the company policy, you have the working agreement, whatever it is that says, look, camera's on all the time, sometimes it's just not possible. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I recently had to figure out internet in the middle of nowhere, because that's where I live now.
Laura Kendrick (10:52)
Mm. No.
Cort Sharp (11:15)
And I was worried for a while that I wouldn't be able to put my camera on. But, you know, if if they came down to that, I know that it would be, hey, you know, it's a it's a unique situation. It's something different. And we're going to do we're going to work the best that we can with it and try to figure out maybe you can turn your camera on for any time you're talking or just any time you have something to say or, you know, if you're agreeing with something, you could briefly turn your camera on to show like, yeah, I'm nodding. I'm agreeing. I'm doing whatever. Right. But
Laura Kendrick (11:45)
Honestly, I think recently I had a very busy day and we communicate in back channels, of course through email, but also we use Slack as a team. And so I sent a direct message to court about something and I just like, I sent it in a voice? No. And court's response was, didn't know you could do that in Slack. But in those moments, I think there are other ways of doing it too, where you can bring the humanity out, where it's not just words.
Cort Sharp (12:01)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (12:09)
So often I'm actually thinking about there was one time that you and I were talking about something and I misread it as like, I like kicked something, like some hornet's nest in there. Like you were upset with me, but you were like, no, that was not my intention. And it's an amazing thing that that's only happened once in five years. There was that subtle nuanced miscommunication of I thought I had offended in some way and I hadn't.
Cort Sharp (12:18)
So. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (12:34)
Just keeping that in mind though, in written word, tone is interpreted because probably what happened is I like offended my kid or my partner and was bringing that into the conversation with court. And it had nothing to do with what was actually happening, but adding in those personal things of your face, your voice, those things really do help move that human connection, which enables the teamwork that we've seen at Mountain Go.
Cort Sharp (12:42)
Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (13:00)
I mean, it's amazing the way this team functions and it is not perfect. There are definitely communications missteps. There are definitely like, oops, forgot to leave that piece out of the information packet. It happens. It happens to everybody, but we're able to recover really quickly or even it's a safe enough space to be able to speak up and say, I think I got left out on this. And it's responded to in a really gracious and amazing way.
Cort Sharp (13:26)
It absolutely is. I mean, Mountain Goat's been remote for longer than the COVID stuff, the pandemic stuff happened.
Laura Kendrick (13:33)
Yeah. Well, Lisa's been with them for what, 10 years? I think it was nearly 10 years when we started, maybe 15. And Hunter's around the same. So yeah, they've been spread for a long time.
Cort Sharp (13:42)
Something like that, Uh-huh. ⁓ I know that they had an office space and that office space changed just in case people wanted to like come in, come to the office. I think at one point, one of them was in Colorado, which is kind of funny because several people live on the West coast. And then it's like, okay, yeah, come on, come on, swing by the... Colorado office on just a random Tuesday. Yeah, fly in, have fun. I don't know. Yeah, why not? I don't know what the deal was or what it was like, but they've been fully remote. And I think with the kind of runway that they've had leading up until the time where everyone had to be fully remote has really benefited Mountain Go in a lot of ways, because a lot of those early, like, how do we work remote? How do we do this?
Laura Kendrick (14:09)
I'd do that. Yeah, let's do it.
Cort Sharp (14:31)
kind of was ironed out, but back to your, your point to just like, it's, it's incredible how much support there is. It's incredible how much, how well communication again, it's not perfect, but how well we're able to communicate with each other and how well we're able to just say, yeah, let's, let's hop on a call real quick or here. I think most of us have like personal phone numbers. We, we use that as a very much so last resort type deal.
Laura Kendrick (14:57)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (14:59)
But even then, it's nice to just have those open lines of communication and know that those are always available, but also know that people are kind of in our corner all the time too. And I think you have a pretty good story about this one. Something happened in a class a few years ago.
Laura Kendrick (15:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was early on we had, it was a non-Mike class. So it was one of the other instructors and there was a student who was just challenging. And in the end, it didn't go well in the moment, to put it, just to kind of like not go into grave detail about it. But Mike wasn't there, right? And so The thing that was interesting though is the first piece of communication that came from Mike, which was before that class even broke, right? Because it was one of those things of like, we have to share. As a team, we can't hide it. We have to share that something happened in class that was less than ideal. And so we did. And the immediate response from Mike was in support of the team. And later on, he did go and review the tape of the, because the classes are recorded, not for this purpose. They're recorded actually so that the students get a recording of the class afterwards and can return to what, you know, all the things that they learned because it's a lot to take in in two days. But in this one instance, it was beneficial in this way because Mike could actually see rather than taking people's words, what happened. And I think the important thing is not even what happened after, but what happened in the moment. that he instantaneously was like, I've got you. Like no matter how this goes, we're a team and I'm gonna support you as well. And that was actually, that was pretty early on for me. And it was in a moment where I didn't know Mike that well yet. And it was actually this very solidifying moment for me that was like, I'm in the right place. Like I am part of this team, not just a minion or an employee. Like they care about all of us.
Cort Sharp (16:48)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (16:56)
and we're in this together, even if it turns out that we're in some form of trouble, it's still going to be thoughtfully managed and handled rather than just the kind of lashing out that can happen in so many environments.
Cort Sharp (17:12)
Right. And, and that experience, cause I think we were all included on that email. Like I, I wasn't in the class when it happened, but I do remember getting that email and it just was a clear communication from kind of head honcho Mike, right? A top dog saying, yeah, no, we, we got your back. on, we're on the same team. We're all working towards the same goal. And when I, when I read the email, I was like, wow, that was an eventful class. but.
Laura Kendrick (17:26)
Mm-hmm. us.
Cort Sharp (17:38)
My second thought, my second thought was, huh, this very similar to what you were saying of like, wow, this is a great place to be. This is a great company to work for. These are great people to be working with and alongside. ⁓ but also like, I know so many people whose managers, whose higher ups would say, Nope, you're in the wrong. You should have done better. Your toast, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like putting all the blame on you. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (17:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. The knee jerk. Yeah. Yeah.
Cort Sharp (18:07)
And it just, makes me think all the time of like one really blessed, like very fortunate to be here, very fortunate to work with mountain goat. but also people don't quit jobs. They quit managers. They quit leadership more often than not. And, not that I'm talking about quitting mountain goat, but, neither, neither of us are throwing that out there right now, but just like,
Laura Kendrick (18:20)
Mmm. Yeah. No, but interestingly in five years, I've not seen anybody quit. I mean, we've had people kind of go down separate paths, but nobody has been throwing their hands up and been like, I'm done. I can't be in this. There have been people who have taken other opportunities that they needed to take for their own businesses. But yeah, nobody's quit. In five years, no one has quit, which speaks volumes to the culture that is created in an environment where
Cort Sharp (18:37)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (18:57)
And I also want to be clear that that response from Mike also, it wasn't disparaging to the other party either. It was simply a, like, it just let us know that I see you and this, you were in a hard moment in the moment and you had to react like a human being and you as a team, I've got your back and this is, you know, great. And to be fair to that was like in the heat of COVID.
Cort Sharp (19:24)
Yes, yeah It was yeah
Laura Kendrick (19:27)
good times. But there's also been a lot of fun that's happened in class too, which is, I think that makes a big difference. Like where we are, I don't want to say allowed because I don't think that's right, but like part of the culture is to have fun. Like Mike is a pretty funny guy. Brian's a pretty funny guy. Like honestly, the whole team is quite humorous and it's, we're allowed to like make these really fun things and
Cort Sharp (19:48)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (19:52)
in response to like when we see them in class, like, we foster those two and it becomes this really fun working environment, not only for us, for our students. You brought up one that I had totally forgotten about with the costume. That was good.
Cort Sharp (20:06)
⁓ yeah, I, I, yeah, I'll, I'll get into the costume thing, but I think the word you're looking for instead of allowed is enabled. Like we're, we're enabled to have fun. We're encouraged. Absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. If you ever hung out with Mike or, or taking a class with him, you've probably heard some funny stories.
Laura Kendrick (20:13)
Yeah, Encouraged, in fact. And my gosh, the one class too where Mike was asked how long they'd have access to like the videos and stuff. my gosh, Mike ended the class and it was a super engaged Chipper class. Everyone was laughing and Mike brought it down. Cause he did his usual thing where he talked about, what does he say? You have access as long as the internet exists and I'm alive. And then he went into great detail. great detailed speculation about what will happen once he's not alive. It went on for like five minutes.
Cort Sharp (20:58)
Yeah, where where he's like, yeah, you know, my kids will probably be like, what's this? What's this old website that dad's still hosting? Guess we'll we'll close that up 10 years down the line or whatever.
Laura Kendrick (21:09)
Dumbfounded. It was so good. But anyhow.
Cort Sharp (21:13)
man. But there was, I don't even remember why this happened in the class. don't think it was around like Halloween time or something. think the person, actually, I think the person does this to go to like local children's hospitals or local hospitals and just visit. But I get on and I'm normally the PM producer. So I normally hop on in the afternoon. And I took over from Laura and
Laura Kendrick (21:22)
No, it wasn't. think so.
Cort Sharp (21:39)
Laura was like, yeah, you know, pretty normal class. This happens, whatever. We're good. And I hop on and people start turning their cameras on. And then all of a sudden there's this dude in a Captain America costume. Like what? He's got the mask. He's got the, the, the uniform. He's got the shield and everything. And I was like, what is happening? What is going on? Come to find out he was telling his story.
Laura Kendrick (21:50)
Like full on math.
Cort Sharp (22:04)
Yeah, I do this. This is cool. And Mike was like, that'd be awesome to see. He went out, put it on and took the rest of the classes Captain America. So we have certified Captain America.
Laura Kendrick (22:12)
Awesome. We've had, there was the guy who was put on like a crazy hat for the first session and then came back for session two with a different crazy hat. And then other people started wearing crazy hats. And by the end of it, like by the final session, almost the entire class was sitting there with some like their kids stuff on their heads. it was.
Cort Sharp (22:34)
You
Laura Kendrick (22:36)
But was this one, like it stands out of the billion classes we've done. It stands out in our minds as these really fun moments. I remember the class where it was a private class, so it was for a company or team. And there were, it took me until the very end to, it was early on, so it took me until the very end to get up the gumption. There were five mics in the class. And finally I was like, I'm just gonna put them all in the same room and see if anybody notices.
Cort Sharp (22:36)
People just... Yes. Didn't they notice like right away, they all came back and they're like, team Mike is back in action or something, right?
Laura Kendrick (23:04)
I don't think they said anything, but they did. The instructor went into the room and like, yeah, they noticed. Good. My passive aggressive humor worked.
Cort Sharp (23:10)
Hehehehehe It's fun. It's all good. But it's also like going back to us being able to do this before I figured out kind of my background situation, I would always put up virtual backgrounds and I would just change your background every time and see if people noticed. And it wasn't, it was a lot of Disney. Yes.
Laura Kendrick (23:23)
Mm-hmm. Disney. That's the thing though. That also, that kind of stuff built a little bit of a relationship as well. like it was, court was always going to have something for Disney. I had one that I would, when I finally found the one I liked, I kept that one for a long time. And Mike would occasionally, when I wasn't in a class, he would send me a screenshot of somebody via email and be like, somebody's in your house with you. Cause they would have the same background.
Cort Sharp (23:52)
Yeah!
Laura Kendrick (23:56)
those little tiny things make the relationships and make the team function and make us giggle. So I'd be like out with my kids and see an email and be like, oh no, Mike, what does he need? And then click in and be like, you know, actually more often than not, it would probably be like, am I missing class? See, I'd be like, oh, that's funny. But you know, it builds that relationship. And I think it's why this remote working has worked so well for us. And I'm totally with you where I, when people are
Cort Sharp (24:13)
You Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (24:26)
railing against it because of my experience. like, you're crazy. This is great.
Cort Sharp (24:31)
Exactly. I'm like, how can you not want to just chill out, hang out in your home, chat with some people, get some work done, and like, you're good. Who despises that? Who doesn't like that? don't know. It's, Exactly, yeah. But I do think it does, it comes down to being intentional with it. We were talking about that 30 minutes before that used to be primarily tech troubleshooting.
Laura Kendrick (24:47)
I know, you get to do things on your own time too.
Cort Sharp (25:01)
but has since kind of evolved into, okay, so everything, like, I don't know about you, but the vast majority of time, unless a camera's fallen, the vast majority of time, it's, all right, does everything look good? Yeah? Cool. Sure does. Whoever I'm working with, awesome. So, what'd you do this weekend? how was this? ⁓ sorry, sorry that the Avs lost to the Dallas Stars. Yeah, I'm sorry too. Stuff like that, right? Where it's just,
Laura Kendrick (25:19)
Yeah. It's water cooler talk.
Cort Sharp (25:29)
It's fun, but we're very intentional with having that time to do that. And I think if you're not intentional in setting up that time, whether if you're working remote hybrid, you're not going to get it. And it's not just going to naturally happen because it is so much more difficult to produce. it's impossible for it to just kind of naturally pop up without taking away from some other intentional time. so I think in, in this this world that we're living in where there is the option to work remotely and there is this really big push to go back in person. I'm saying stick with remote, take your 15, 15 minute daily standup, and turn it into, you know, say, Hey, I'll be on 10, 15 minutes early. If anyone wants to come hang out, come chat. And make it worth it. Make it a valuable time because that is the time to connect and that is the time to say, yeah, cool. How are the kids? How was your weekend? Did you grill up some good hot dogs during this last weekend? What'd you do? Like, what was going on? ⁓ Build up that stuff.
Laura Kendrick (26:23)
Yeah. We also have Slack channels too, that are like that. Like there's a Slack channel for our team that's just movies, books and TV shows. That people, it'll get active at certain times and it'll be totally dead for a while and nobody's cultivating it. It's simply that somebody will pop in like, I just watched this and it's great. And they've set up also like the automatic bots, cause Mike's a big fan of James Bond. So like if somebody mentions James Bond, the Slack bot will say something quippy and it-
Cort Sharp (26:39)
Yeah. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (26:58)
But it adds that little, like, little bit of humor, little bit of humanness to even though, like, the people that we have time to interact with like that is the team that's in class. So I don't, I mean, it wasn't until we were in person that I met our CTO. He was kind of an enigma, you know?
Cort Sharp (27:10)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. He was just in the background. Things just magically showed up digitally.
Laura Kendrick (27:23)
It was in my email and my Slack sometimes, but it creates that thing of like, now I know things about Hunter. Yes, of course it was because we were in person. I heard lots of stories and all that fun stuff. But also I know about like some of his like TV watching stuff. I know occasionally like what his wife likes to watch because sometimes he'll like pepper in something that, she dragged me into this and not my cup of tea. But it's those little bitty things that you start to learn about the people.
Cort Sharp (27:39)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (27:50)
that makes them human and gives that space. And I also, think it's important to have it be a little bit of white space. so often we talk about cultivating the conversation and like, can you have icebreakers and get people engaged? And yes, those things are so important, but when it's with a team, you need to do those things, but you also need to create the empty space where maybe you have that daily standup or that... weekly meeting or monthly meeting, whatever that is for your team. And maybe at the end of it, it's just leaving the call going and allowing people to just talk. I mean, we did that as a producer team that we would have a meeting as producers that would be very structured and then kind of the official meeting would end. And there would be times where as a team we'd be on that Zoom. I'm like, thank goodness nobody needs this channel. Cause like we'd be in there for like two and a half hours.
Cort Sharp (28:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (28:42)
just talking. And of course, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't billing time. It wasn't, you know, it was just us being friends and hearing each other and sometimes ranting and complaining and doing the things of like, this part was hard and like, yeah, well, people need the space to do that and feel seen and heard. And the only place they're going to get that is in the white space.
Cort Sharp (29:01)
Yep. Exactly. Yep. And where my head went when you were talking about the white space, I love where you just went to because that's absolutely very true. But where my mind went was the newest kind of Slack channel that that's been set up, which is the artificial intelligence. Yeah. Where we just we just it's cool because I'm interested in AI. I think everyone's interested in AI right now. Things are things are going in all sorts of wild directions with it. There's there's all sorts of possibilities that we can do with it.
Laura Kendrick (29:17)
⁓ Yeah, that one's Yeah.
Cort Sharp (29:32)
And Hunter just threw out, who wants in? If you want in, cool, I'll get you in. If not, and you're not interested in AI, let me know when you are, because it'll be at some point, I was going to say. It's just another full group one. Yeah, we just.
Laura Kendrick (29:39)
Yeah. Pretty sure the whole team's in there. But it is fun. Like Hunter and Mike do deep dives and Brian too. And I'm like, wow, I just get to swim in that pool. It's really
Cort Sharp (29:50)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. You just kind of get a glean from what's posted in there and say, oh yeah, I am really interested in the automation side of AI. I want to do, I think I threw in there one time, like this whole GitHub repository that has just from zero to hero AI, here's a two week crash course. And I've been working my way through that. It's taken a lot longer than two weeks for me. I've been working my way through that. And it's opened my eyes to say, okay, now this awesome thing, think Mike just threw in there something about someone using it at Disney, I think it was, and how they were using it at Disney to propose, here's a cool way that we can use AI to help our proposals go faster or help our marketing campaigns go faster or whatever it is. And just learning and seeing and...
Laura Kendrick (30:38)
Yeah.
Cort Sharp (30:44)
growing together as a team as well and having that space of, yeah, you know, here's what here, here are these articles that I'm reading. Here's the ones that stuck out to me. And to have that space, I think also is, is really interesting to me too, not just because I like learning, but it's also like, I feel like, okay, I can talk with Mike about AI. I can talk with Hunter about AI. I can talk with whoever about it. And we're all relatively on the same page because we're all relatively getting the same information.
Laura Kendrick (31:14)
Yeah, yeah. I feel like having the Slack channel has been really helpful and all the white space and even honestly the in-person event, there was white space built into that too. There was definitely a lot of structured meetings because of course when you are bringing everyone in from all over the country and actually the world, have a team member who is in the UK too.
Cort Sharp (31:26)
yeah.
Laura Kendrick (31:37)
flying a great distance and being in a space together, it's got to be structured. You have to make that worth the time and effort and investment. But also there were dinners, there were shows that happened, there was fun built into it, and there were options of not just like, I'm forcing you to go to this, but like, here's a choice. Would you like to do this or that? And those things have made a huge difference in breeding the like belongingness.
Cort Sharp (31:55)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (32:05)
and the feeling like we are actually a team. And even though there are definitely times where the frustrations arise, of course, I mean, who doesn't have frustrations, but it's a space where they can be vocalized, they can be talked through, and it's all due to that togetherness that we have, that connectedness that has been built through, honestly,
Cort Sharp (32:05)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (32:30)
just being in these like casual fun spaces is where that comes from in my opinion.
Cort Sharp (32:36)
Yeah, I agree with that. Just having the space to talk about whatever. But I think it's all rooted in communication, right? So in various methods of communicating and various ways of communicating too, where it's not just exclusively Slack, email, written text, we have that space there. But we do still run into some communication problems, right? There's...
Laura Kendrick (32:41)
Yeah. For sure, for sure.
Cort Sharp (32:58)
there's all sorts of communication problems that we're gonna run into because especially we are text-based heavy, but we're not exclusively text-based. But I think you were talking about a story where Mike was late one time or Mike's late story about communication and what was going on with that.
Laura Kendrick (33:12)
he tells it in class. He tells a story in class with that. It's one of his examples that he will pull into fairly frequently with an experience with a team where somebody was always late to the daily standup and they realized that it had to do with the fact that they had to drop their kid off at school. And so it was that simple communication shift of asking instead of assuming, asking which... They've put into practice too, like I recall early on hearing like, do you prefer to be communicated with? And like we've had these conversations that court and I have a tendency to be more slack people. But Brian has stated that for him, like when he's teaching slack is like his emergency line. And so like knowing that I'm not going to send him something through slack unless I desperately need him to see it when I can land it in his email versus Lisa and Laura are much more
Cort Sharp (33:43)
yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (34:04)
they're going to be in the email. Like that's just where they live and they are less likely to be in Slack. So it's just knowing those things have also helped us build the right kind of streams of communication. I'm pretty sure Hunter is everywhere all at once. Like he's omnipresent. You can get him anywhere. I know it. I'm in New York and he's in California. I'm pretty sure if I whispered his name, he's hearing it right now.
Cort Sharp (34:06)
Right. my gosh. He's the enigma. He's the enigma everywhere. I was gonna say, I'm surprised he hasn't popped into this. We've said his name three times. It's, he just knows everything and he's always got everything coming through and no matter what you need, he's any message away. Slack, email, could be carry your pigeon. I don't know, something like that, right?
Laura Kendrick (34:43)
Yeah, his next Halloween costume needs to be Beetlejuice, so I'm sending that to him. my goodness. But I think at the end of the day, the practices that have been put into place that you may have felt in our classes too, have helped really grow this team into what it is. There's a lot of strength here. There's a lot of fun here, but there's a lot of hard work here too. And a lot of, there have been hard moments where we've all just kind of put our heads down together and moved through the hard moments as a team with a lot of support and a lot of.
Cort Sharp (35:12)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (35:15)
Just trying to be in it and be like kind of move things where it needs to go. I don't know what the right word is as a team. It's redundant.
Cort Sharp (35:22)
I think it. Yeah. But I think that that does show in our classes a lot, right? You and I have both taken a class outside of the mountain goat sphere, ⁓ and I'm not I'm not dogging on anyone. I'm not trying to talk down on anyone. But I got out of that class. I was like, man, we are light years ahead of that.
Laura Kendrick (35:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cort Sharp (35:49)
that kind of interaction and that kind of experience. was the information that I got out of that class was awesome, superb. It was great. But just the amount of energy and effort and time that has been invested into these Mountain Goat courses, it's far and away just, it shows. And it shows how much of a level up it is to take a class with Mountain Goat. And I do think partly, you know, I'm boosting my own ego here. But I do think partly it is because we are surrounded with some awesome people and we have some awesome people working together and awesome support on every call, every class that you take with us, right? You don't have to, like the instructor can focus on just instructing. And we, more often than not, we are typically in charge of everything else. Make sure that any tech problems, any issues, anything that's going on, right? Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (36:32)
Yeah. Yeah. I remember the early days. Like you just brought up a memory that apparently I had stored in the trauma bank. I remember the early days though being, because I would often, because I'm on the East Coast, court is in mountain times. So, often I would be the early person just because it's easier for me. was mid morning for me. we would start class and it would be just, especially honestly when like people were figuring out Zoom and all this stuff, it was... stressful. Like they were just, it was just question, question, question, problem, problem, problem. And we would get to the first breakout and I would send everyone away and the instructor would be like, that was great. And I'm like, was, you know, just totally frazzled. But the point was, is no one else felt that. And it was, I was in my Slack and working with the team, working with Hunter, things fixed, working with Lisa, making sure the person was in the right place.
Cort Sharp (37:20)
Yeah, glad. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (37:33)
and doing all these things. And though that has died down because we've all gotten very good at our job and the systems in place are amazing at this point, it still is like, that's the whole point. We worked as a team so that the instructor could deliver an amazing class and be present with his students. And we could be here or her, because we do have hers too, I should say. They're students. And we were here taking care of the things that needed to be taken care of, which was, yeah.
Cort Sharp (37:54)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (38:00)
Though I had forgotten about that. Thanks for that.
Cort Sharp (38:02)
Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's gotten easy, right? ⁓
Laura Kendrick (38:04)
Yeah, it does. But that's at the end of the day, that's how a good team is. I think that we can kind of end it with this thing of Mike has created this environment and it definitely comes from him. Like it's is rooted in the founder for us because we're a small team, small but mighty. But he it's rooted in his like engine of creativity, efficiency, and just love of innovation. And that has kind of
Cort Sharp (38:18)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (38:34)
folding that in with seeing all the people as humans, and with flaws and different talents and all those things and human interaction is messy and folding all of that in has actually been what has bred these amazing class experiences for our students and also this rewarding and fantastic team experience for the people behind the scenes as well. And I think the lesson
Cort Sharp (38:39)
Yes. Yep.
Laura Kendrick (38:59)
comes from that, that if we can fold those things in together and make space for humans to be humans and also have this amazing expectation of creativity and innovation, then it's all going to happen.
Cort Sharp (39:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I 100 % agree with that. I mean, it does come down to Mike and Mike is a fantastic leader. It's awesome. I also want to raise Mike, but.
Laura Kendrick (39:28)
Nice. Not passive aggressive at all. On that note.
Cort Sharp (39:29)
Yeah, you know. No. I'm just joking, right? We're able to have fun. We're able to joke around. But it does come down to leadership, right? And I think that's true on any team. And we have just we've been so fortunate to be able to experience it firsthand and go through this awesome transformation from being in person to fully remote, even in the class teaching stuff. And it's been really, really fun. really, really enjoyable. I, you know, you don't love every day. There are jobs, right? It's a job. But I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie. It has been fun. It has been enjoyable. But I don't look back on it and be like, wow, these last five years were just all terrible. No, it's we've had great leadership. We've had great interactions with with everyone. And I think
Laura Kendrick (40:05)
You should have just left it at really, really fun and enjoyable. Mic drop, goodbye.
Cort Sharp (40:28)
It's just come down to the people that we're working with and the people that we're engaging with consistently. And our leadership, Mike, has fostered an environment very, very well that is around fun, around communication, around enabling us to grow, to learn, to try new things, to move forward. And I really feel bad for companies who don't have that kind of leadership. that's, it's a tough spot to be in, but, I'm really, we're really blessed and really fortunate to, to be able to work here. And I hope this, this little peek behind the curtain, kind of encourages you to you, the listener, guess, whoever, whoever's out there to take a, take a little step back and say, okay, what, what am I doing as a leader within my sphere of influence to help my team be a little more human and embrace the humanity side of stuff? Not just pushing for more, we need more, more productivity, more AI, more everything, right? Yeah. Use AI, make it a tool, but just remember you're, building stuff for, for people. You're working with people all the time. And I think that's something that Mike has never forgotten and never will forget and never will let fall to the wayside that we're all people and we're all here working with each other.
Laura Kendrick (41:43)
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Well, on that amazing note, thank you, Cort, for joining me in this hijacking of the podcast, the Agile Mentors podcast. And we're going to turn it back over to Brian, who's going to walk you right on out.
Cort Sharp (41:54)
Happy to.

#149: How Agile Action Drives Strategy with Boris Gloger

What does it really mean to have a bias toward action and how do you build that into your culture without skipping strategy? Boris Gloger joins Brian Milner for a deep dive on experimentation, leadership, and the difference between tactical work and true strategic thinking.
Overview
In this conversation, Brian welcomes longtime Scrum pioneer, consultant, and author Boris Gloger to explore the tension between planning and doing in Agile environments.
Boris shares how a bias toward action isn’t about skipping steps—it’s about shortening the cycle between idea and feedback, especially when knowledge gaps or fear of mistakes create inertia.
They unpack why experimentation is often misunderstood, what leaders get wrong about failure, and how AI, organizational habits, and strategy-as-practice are reshaping the future of Agile work.
References and resources mentioned in the show:
Boris Gloger
LinkedIn
Leaders Guide to Agile eBook
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Want to get involved?
This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.
Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com
This episode’s presenters are:
Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.
Boris Gloger is a pioneering agile strategist and Germany’s first Certified Scrum Trainer, known for shaping how organizations across Europe approach transformation, strategy, and sustainable leadership. As founder of borisgloger consulting, he helps teams and executives navigate complexity—blending modern management, ethical innovation, and even AI—to make agility actually work in the real world.
Auto-generated Transcript:
Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one, the only Mr. Boris Glogger with us. Welcome in Boris.
Boris Gloger (00:11)
Yeah, thank you, Eurobrein, for having me on your show.
Brian Milner (00:14)
Very excited to have Boris here. For those of you who haven't crossed paths with Boris, Boris has been involved in the Scrum movement, I would say, since the very, very earliest days. He's a CST, he's a coach, he's an author, he's a keynote speaker. He had a book early called The Agile Fixed Price. He runs his own consultancy in Europe. And he has a new book that's been, that's going to be coming out soon called strategy as practice. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to have Boris on is because there's kind of this topic area that's been percolating that I've heard people talk about quite often. And I see some confused looks when the, when the topic comes up, you hear this term about having a bias toward action. And, we just wanted to kind of dive into that a little bit about what that means to have a bias toward action. and really how we can apply that to what we do in our day-to-day lives. So let's start there, Boris. When you hear that term, having a bias toward action, what does that mean to you?
Boris Gloger (01:12)
The fun thing is I was always in tune with the idea because people said my basic mantra at the beginning of doing agile was doing as a way of thinking. So the basic idea of agile for me was always experimentation, trying things out, breaking rules, not for the sake of breaking rules, but making to create a new kind of order. the basic idea is like we had with test-driven development at the beginning of all these agile approaches and we said, yeah, we need to test first and then we have the end in our mind, but we don't know exactly how to achieve that. So there is this kind of bias towards action. That's absolutely true. On the other hand, what I've always found fascinating was that even the classical project management methodologies said, Yeah, you have to have a plan, but the second step is to revise that plan. And that was always this, do we plan planning and reality together? And actually for me at the beginning, 35 years ago, was exactly that kind of really cool blend of being able to have a great vision and people like Mike and all these guys, they had always said, we need to have that kind of a vision, we need to know. Yeah, if the product owner was exactly that idea, you have to have that vision, but you really need to get the nitty-gritty details of, so to say, of doing this stuff.
Brian Milner (02:40)
Yeah, that's awesome. And the thing that kind of always pops to my head when I think about this is, we hear this term bias toward action and there's sort of this balance, I think a little bit between planning and action, right? I mean, you wanna plan, you wanna plan well, but you don't wanna over plan. You don't wanna waste too much time trying to come up with a perfect plan. You wanna... you want to do things, but you also don't want to be, you don't want to rush into things. So how do people find that balance between not just, you know, going off, you know, like we say in the U S half cocked a little bit, you know, like just not, not really not ready to really do the thing that you're going to do. Cause you didn't really invest the time upfront, but on the other hand, not spending so much time that you're trying to get the perfect plan before you do anything.
Boris Gloger (03:28)
You know, the problem, for me, the issue was solved by when I figured out that the teams typically struggle not to achieve, for instance, the sprint goal or the end or whatever they wanted to accomplish when they have not the right know-how. So it's a knowledge problem. So for instance, I don't know if this is still the case, but sometimes developers say, need to... to immerse myself with that I need to figure that out. I need to get the new framework before I can do something about estimates or something. So whenever you hear that, that you know that person that just tries to give you an estimate or the team that would like to come into a sprint goal or whatever it is, they are not really knowing what topic is about. It's a knowledge gap. And then people tend to go into that analysis paralysis problem. They don't know exactly what they need to do. So therefore they need to investigate. But by doing investigation, you start making that big elephant in the corner, larger and larger and larger and larger because you go that ishikara diagram, you have too many options. It's like playing chess with all options at hand and not have enough experience. What kind of gambit you would like to do. So everything's possible and by, because you have not enough experience, you say everything's possible, that creates too much of a planning hassle. And Agile, is the funny thing is, made us very transparent by just saying, okay, let's spend maybe two weeks. And then we figured out two weeks is too much. So let's do a spike, then we call it a spike. The basic idea was always to have a very short time frame, timeline where we try to bring our know-how to a specific problem, try to solve it as fast as possible. And the funny thing was actually was, as if I I confess myself that I don't know everything, or anything, sorry, that I don't know anything, then I could say, I give me a very short timeline, I could say I spend an hour. And today we have chat, CVT and perplexity and all that stuff. And then we could say, okay, let's spend an hour observation, but then we need to come up with a better idea of what we are talking about. So we can shorten the time cycle. So whenever I experienced teams or even organizations, when they start getting that planning in place, we have a knowledge problem. And a typical that is, is, or the classical mindset always says, okay, then we need to plan more. We need to make that upfront work. For instance, we need to have backlogs and we need to know all these features, even if we don't know what kind of features our client really would like to have. And the actual software problem is saying, okay, let's get out with something that we can deliver. And then we get feedback. And if we understand that our kind of the amount of time we spend is as cheap as possible. So like we use the tools that we have. We used to know how that we have. We try to create something that we can achieve with what we can do already, then we can improve on that. And then we can figure out, we don't know exactly what we might need to have to do more research or ask another consultant or bring in friends from another team to help us with that.
Brian Milner (06:46)
It's, sounds like the there's a, there's a real, kind of focus then from, from what I'm hearing from you, like a real focus on experimentation and, you know, that, that phrase we hear a lot failing fast, that kind of thing. So how, do you cultivate that? How do you, how do you get the organization to buy in and your team to buy into that idea of. Let's experiment, let's fail fast. And, and, we'll learn more from, from doing that than just, you know, endlessly planning.
Boris Gloger (07:12)
I think the URCHAR community made a huge mistake of embracing this failure culture all the time. We always tell we need to call from failure because we are all ingrained in a culture in the Western society at least, where we learned through school our parents that making failures is not acceptable.
Brian Milner (07:18)
Ha ha.
Boris Gloger (07:32)
And I came across Amy Atkinson and she did a great book to make clear we need to talk about failures and mistakes in a very different kind of way. We need to understand that there are at least three kinds of mistakes that are possible. One is the basic mistake, like a spelling error or you have a context problem in a specific program that you write or you... You break something because you don't know exactly how strong your material is. That is basic mistake. You should know that. That's trainable. The other is the kind of error that you create because the problem you try to solve has too many variables. So that's a complicated problem. You can't foresee all aspects that might happen in future. So typical an airplane is crashing. So you have covered everything you know so far. But then there's some specific problem that nobody could foresee. That's a failure. But it's not something that you can foresee. You can't prevent that. You try to prevent as best as possible. And that's even not an accepted mistake because sometimes people die and you really would like to go against it. So that's the second kind of mistakes you don't like to have. We really like to get out of the system. And then there's a third way kind of mistakes. And that is exactly what we need to have. We need to embrace that experimentation and even experimentation. mean, I started physics in school and in university and an experimental physicists. He's not running an experiment like I just throw a ball around and then I figure out what happens. An experiment is a best guess. You have a theory behind it. You believe that what you deliver or that you try to find out is the best you try to do. The Wright brothers missed their first airplane. I mean, they didn't throw their airplane in the balloon. Then it gets destroyed. They tried whatever they believed is possible. But then you need to understand as a team, as an organization, we have never done this before, so it might get broken. We might learn. For instance, we had once a project where we worked with chemists 10 years ago to splice DNA. So we wanted to understand how DNA is written down in the DNA sequence analyzer. And I needed to understand that we had 90 scientists who created these chemicals to be able to that you can use that in that synthesizer to understand how our DNA is mapped out. And we first need to understand one sprint might get results that 99 of our experience will fail. But again, management said we need to be successful. Yeah, but what is the success in science? I mean, that you know this route of action is not working, right? And that is the kind of failure that we would like to have. And I believe our Agile community need to tell that much more to our clients. It's not like, we need to express failure. No, we don't need to embrace failure. We don't want to have mistakes and we don't want to have complicated issues that might lead to the destroying of our products. need on the other hand, the culture, the experimentation to figure out something that nobody knows so far is acceptable, it's necessary. And then, edge our processes help us again by saying, okay, we can shorten the frame, we can shorten the time frame so that we can create very small, tiny experiments so that in case we are mistaken, Not a big deal. That was the basic idea.
Brian Milner (11:04)
That's a great point. That's really a great point because you're right. It's not failure in general, right? There are certain kinds of failures that we definitely want to avoid, but there's failure as far as I run an experiment. at that point, that's where we start to enter into this dialogue of it's not really a failure at that point. If you run an experiment and it doesn't turn out the way you expected, it's just an experiment that didn't turn out the way you expected.
Boris Gloger (11:30)
Basically, every feature we create in software or even in hardware, we have never done it before. So the client or our customers can't use it so far because it's not there. So now we ship it to the client and then he or she might not really use it the way that we believe it is. Is it broken? it a mistake? It was not a mistake. It was an experiment and now we need to adapt on it. And if we can create a system, that was all that was agile, I think was a bot. On very first start, if we can create a system that gives us feedback early. then that guessing can't be so much deviation or say in a different way, our investment in time and material and costs and money and is shortened as much as possible. So we have very small investments.
Brian Milner (12:13)
Yeah, that's awesome. I'm kind of curious too, because, you know, we, we, we've talked a little bit at the beginning about how, you know, this is part of this bias towards action as part of this entrepreneurial kind of mindset. And I'm curious in your, experience and your consultants experience that you've worked with big companies and small companies, have you noticed a difference in sort of that bias toward action? Uh, you know, that, that kind of. is represented in a different way in a big company versus a more small startup company.
Boris Gloger (12:48)
The funny thing is I don't believe it's a problem of large corporations or small, tiny little startups, even if we would say that tiny little startups are more in tune in making experiments. It's really a kind of what is my mindset, and the mindset is a strange word, but what is my basic habit about how to embrace new things. What is the way I perceive the world? Every entrepreneur who tries to create it or say it different way, even entrepreneurs nowadays need to create business plans. The basic ideas I can show to investors, everything is already mapped out. I have already clients. I have a proven business model. That is completely crazy because If it were a proof business model, someone else would have already done it, right? So obviously you need to come up with the idea that a kind of entrepreneur mindset is a little bit like I try to create something that is much more interesting to phrase it this way. by creating something, it's like art. You can't, can't... Plan art, I mean, it's impossible. I mean, you might have an idea and you might maybe someone who's writing texts or novels might create a huge outline. But on the other hand, within that outline, he needs to be creative again. And someone will say, I just start by getting continuous feedback. It's always the same. You need to create something to be able to observe it. that was for me, for me, that was the epiphany or the idea 25 years ago was, I don't know what your background is, but I wasn't a business analyst. Business analysts always wanted to write documents that the developer can really implement, right? And then we figured out you can't write down what you need to implement. There's no way of writing requirements in the way that someone else can build it. That's impossible. And even philosophers figure that out 100 years ago is written, Shanti said, you can't tell people what is the case. It's impossible. So, but what you can do, you can create something and you can have it in your review. And then you can start discussing about what you just created. And then you create a new result based on your observations and the next investment that you put in that. And then you create the next version of your product, your feature, your service, et cetera.
Brian Milner (15:12)
Hmm.
Boris Gloger (15:25)
And when we came back to the entrepreneur mindset and starting companies, Greaves created exactly that. He said, okay, let's use scrum to come up with as much possibilities for experimentation. And then we will see if it works. Then we can go on at that. And large corporations typically, They have on the one hand side, have too much money. And by having too much money, you would like to get an investment and they have a different problem. Typically large corporations typically needs to, they have already a specific margin with their current running products. And if you come up with a new business feature product, you might not get that as that amount of of revenue or profitability at the beginning. And therefore, can't, corporations have the problem that they have already running business and they are not seeing that they need to spend much, much more money on these opportunities. And maybe over time, that opportunity to make money and that's their problem. So this is the issue. It's not about entrepreneurial mindsets, it's about that. problem that you are not willing to spend that much money as long as you make much more money, it's the same amount of time on your current business. It happens even to myself, We are running a consulting company in Germany and Austria, and Austria is much smaller than Germany's tenth of the size. And if you spend one hour of sales in Austria, you don't make that much money in Austria than you make in Germany. this investment of one hour. Where should you focus? You will always focus on Germany, of course. means obvious.
Brian Milner (17:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Boris Gloger (17:10)
Does it make sense? Maybe I'm running so.
Brian Milner (17:14)
No, that makes sense. That makes sense entirely. And so I'm kind of curious in this conversation about action and having a bias toward action then, what do you think are some of the, in your experience in working with companies, what have you seen as sort of the common obstacles or barriers, whether that be psychological or. organizational, what do you find as the most common barriers that are preventing people from having that bias toward action?
Boris Gloger (17:44)
the they are they are afraid of the of that of tapping into the new room endeavor. So that was always my blind spot because I'm an entrepreneur. I love to do new things. I just try things out. If I've either reading a book, and there's a cool idea, I try to what can happen. But we are not And most organizations are not built that way that they're really willing to, when most people are not good in just trying things out. And most people would really like to see how it's done. And most people are not good in... in that have not the imagination what might be possible. That's the we always know that product adoption curve, that the early adopters, the fast followers, the early minority, the late minority. And these inventors or early adopters, they are the ones who can imagine there might be a brighter future if I try that out. And the other ones are the ones who need to see that it is successful. And so whenever you try implementing Scrum or design thinking or mob programming or I don't whatever it is, you will always have people who say it's not possible because I don't have, haven't seen it before. And I sometimes I compare that with how to how kids are learning. Some kids are learning because they see how what is happening. They just mirroring what they see. And some kids are start to invent the same image in imagination. And but both that we are all of us are able to do both. It's not like I'm an imaginary guy who's inventing all the time and I don't, people, maybe there's a preference and the organizations have the same preference. But typically that's the problem that I see in organizations is based on our society and our socialization, on our business behaviors and maybe the pressure of large corporations and all that peer pressure is
Brian Milner (19:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Boris Gloger (19:54)
The willingness to give people the room to try something out is the problem. Well, not the problem, it's the hinders us of being more innovative in organizations.
Brian Milner (19:59)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that brings to mind a good question then too, because this experimentation mindset is very, very much a cultural kind of aspect of an organization, which speaks to leadership. And I'm kind of curious from your perspective, if you're a leader, what kind of things can you do as a leader to encourage, foster, of really nurture? that experimentation mindset in your organization.
Boris Gloger (20:34)
Let's have a very simple example. Everybody of us now maybe have played with chat, CPT, Suno, perplexity and so on. So that's the school AI technology around the corner. And what happens now in organizations is exactly what happens 30 years ago when the internet came here. You have leadership or managers who say, that's a technology, I give it to the teams, they can figure out whatever that is. And the funny thing is, if you have a technology that will change the way we behave, so it's a social technology, a kind of shift, then I need to change my behavior, I need to change the way I do I'm doing things. Yeah, everybody of us has now an iPhone or an Android or whatever it is, but but we are using our mobiles in a completely different way than 30 years ago. And to lead us and manage us, we need to train ourselves first before we can help our teams to change. So the problem is that Again, a lot of Agilist talks about we need, first we need to change the culture of organizations to be able to do Agile and so on and so on. That's complete nonsense. But what we really need to is we need to have managers, team leads, it with team leads, to help them to do the things themselves because Agile, even in the beginning, now it's technology change, now it's AI, is something that changes the way we do our stuff. It's kind of habit. And we need to help them to seize themselves. Maybe they can only seize themselves by doing that stuff. And that goes back to my belief that leadership needs to know much more about the content of their teams and the way these teams can perform their tasks and the technology that is around to be able to thrive in organizations.
Brian Milner (22:40)
Yeah. Yeah. I love this discussion and I love that you brought up, you know, AI and how that's affecting things here as well. how do you think that's having a, do you think that's making it easier, harder? How do you think AI is, is kind of influencing this bias toward action mentality?
Boris Gloger (22:59)
Yeah, it depends on if you are able to play. mean, because the funny thing is, it's a new kind of technology. really knows what all these tools can do by themselves. And it's new again. It's not like I have done AI for the next last 10 years and I know exactly what's possible. So we need to play. So you need to log in to adjust it. Yesterday, I tried something on Zulu. I created the company song in 10 seconds. I went to ChatGVT, I said I need a song, I need lyrics for a company song. These are the three words I would like to have, future, Beurus Kluger, and it needs to be that kind of mood. ChatGVT created the song for my lyrics, then they put the lyrics into the... And they created a prompt with ChatGVT and then put that prompt in my lyrics into Sono and Sono created that song within 10 seconds. I mean, it's not get the Grammy. Okay. It's not the Grammy. But it was, I mean, it's, it's, it's okay. Yeah. It's a nice party song. And now, and just playing around. And that is what I would like to see in organizations, that we start to play around with these kind of technologies and involve everybody. But most people, the very discussions that I had in the last couple of weeks or months was about these tools shall do the job exactly the same way as it is done today. So it's like... I create that kind of report. Now I give that to Chet Chibati and Chet Chibati shall create that same report again. That is nonsense. It's like doing photography in the old days, black and white. And now I want to have photography exactly done the same way with my digital camera. And what happened was we used the digital cameras changed completely the way we create photography and art. changed completely, right? And that is the same thing we need to do with ChatGV team. And we need to understand that we don't know exactly how to use it. And then we can enlarge and optimize on one hand the way we are working, for instance, creating 20 different versions for different social media over text or something like that, or 20 new pictures. But if I would like to express myself, so, and... and talk about my own behavior or my own team dynamic and what is the innovation in ourselves, then we need to do ourselves. And we can use, that is the other observation that we made. The funny thing that goes back to the knowledge issue, the funny thing is that teams typically say, I don't know if it's in the US, but at least in my experience, that we still have the problem within teams. that people believe this is my know-how and that is your know-how and I'm a specialist in X or Y set. So they can't talk to each other. But if you use maybe chat GPT and all these tools now, they can bridge these know-how gaps using these tools. And suddenly they can talk to each other much faster. So they get more productive. It's crazy. It's not like I'm now a fool with a tool. I can be a fool and the tool might help me to overcome my knowledge gaps.
Brian Milner (26:20)
Now this is awesome. I know that your book that's coming out, Strategy is Practice, talks about a lot of these things. Tell us a little bit about this book and kind of what the focus is.
Boris Gloger (26:30)
the basic idea when I started doing working on the on strategies, we be in the the actual community, we talk about strategy as what is a new idea of being OKR. So OKR equals strategy, and that is not true. And I came up with this basic idea, what is the basic problem of of strategic thinking and we are back to the in most organizations, we still believe strategy is the planning part and then we have an implementation part. And years ago, I came across a very basic, completely different idea that said every action is strategy. Very simple example. You have the strategy in a company that you have a high price policy. Everything you do is high price. But then you are maybe in a situation where you really need money, effort, revenue issues, liquidation, liquidation problems. Then you might reduce your price. And that moment, your strategy is gone. just your obviously and you have now a new strategy. So your actions and your strategies always in line. So it's not the tactic for the strategy, but tactic is strategy. And now we are back to Azure. So now we can say, okay, we need kind of a long-term idea. And now we can use for creating the vision. For instance, you list the V2MOM framework for creating your vision. But now I need to have a possibility to communicate my strategic ideas. And in the Azure community, we know how to do this. We have plannings and we have dailies and we have reviews and retrospectives. So now I can use all these tools. I can use from the bookshelf of Azure tools. I can use maybe OKRs to create a continuous cycle of innovation or communication so that I get that everybody knows now what is the right strategy. And I can feed back with the reviews to management. that the strategy approach might not work that way that they believed it's possible experimentation. And then and I added two more ideas from future insight or strategic foresight, some other people call it. So the basic idea is, how can I still think about the future in an not in the way of that I have a crystal ball. But I could say, how can I influence the future, but I can only influence the future if I have an idea what might be in future. It's like a scenario. Now you can create actions, power these kind of scenarios that you like, or what you need to prevent a specific scenario if you don't like that. And we need a third tool, that was borrowed from ABCD risk planning, was the basic idea, how can I get my very clear a very simple tool to get the tactics or the real environmental changes like suddenly my estimates might not be correct anymore or my suggestions or beliefs about the future might not get true in the future. So I need kind of a system to feed back reality in my strategy. it's a little bit like reviewing all the time the environment. And if you put all that together, then you get a very nice frame how to use strategy on a daily practice. It's not like I do strategy and then have a five-year plan. No, you have to do continuously strategy. And I hope that this will help leaders to do strategy. I mean, because most leaders don't do strategy. They do tactic kind of work. and they don't spend They don't spend enough time in the trenches. to enrich their strategies and their thinking and their vision. because they detach strategy and implementation all the time. That's the basic idea.
Brian Milner (30:30)
That's awesome. That sounds fascinating. And I can't wait to read that. That sounds like it's going to be a really good book. So we'll make sure that we have links in our show notes to that if anyone wants to find out more information about that or learn more from Boris on this topic. Boris, can't thank you enough for making time for coming on. This has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you for coming on the show.
Boris Gloger (30:40)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you very much for having me on your show and appreciate that your time and your effort here. Make a deal for the, it's very supporting for the agile community. Thank you for that.
Brian Milner (30:57)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, thank you.